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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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 Posted: 01-Oct-2008 11:46 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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Figured I'd get some opinions on this, since the pool of experience between all the Mordellians is much greater than my own. The topic is fairly simple, speed.
What speeds do you prefer? What combinations do you feel are not worth it?
I bring this up because I have a mercenary unit I'm always tinkering with, and I like the idea of mobile warfare. Mobile, however, is a word that means different things. A mobile assault 'Mech is very different from a mobile light 'Mech. (Outside of the fact they're both moving anyway.)
Right now, the one big issue that keeps making me want to head desk is trying to consider the advantages between 4/6/4 movement and 3/5/3.
My inner speed freak prefers heavy units with 4/6/4 movement, due to the greater range; however, mathematically, the bonuses for movement are the same as a 3/5/3 unit with a skilled pilot behind the controls.
One of the big questions I keep dealing with is the Highlander. A great assault unit, and guaranteed a place in my forces regardless. However, it keeps coming up as an idea for a command vehicle, where only it's low speed keeps me from grabbing it.
For comparison, I created a version of the Gallowglas GAL-2GLS that has full 4/6/4 movement, XL engine, some other tweaks. In comparing the two, the Highlander HGN-732 has been variety of firepower, better armor, and is cheaper. The Gallowglas's only two advantages are greater speed and more medium range firepower.
The movement difference also comes down to just one hex, or 10kph. In open terrain, the Gallowglas wins, but only by a large amount if the race length is great. In terms of movement modifier, the Gallowglas has an easier time getting it, but they remain the same possible numbers.
Speed kills maybe, but just how important is it? I've got more thoughts on the subject, but figured this was a good place to start my questioning for now.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Oct-2008 16:35 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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Well, I actually prefer the 3 walk for assault mechs because I can pack on so much more in firepower.
However one of the biggest mistakes I see ALL the time with newbie designers is making a 100ton 4/6. If you make it 95ton you GAIN more free tonnage to put to armor and weapons. And the small detriment to structure and max armor carried is nothing compared to the gain.
The gain isn't much with an XL. Only 2 1/2 tons. However, with a standard fusion engine its 8 tons. EIGHT!!
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5789
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Oct-2008 23:08 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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Speed means different things to different people. However as a designer I take into account the various arguments when building a design.
First Question is what weight class?
The obvious answers here are easy to see and use. Designs between 20 and 30 tons are light on armor and typically have speeds of at least 7/11 or 6/9/6. 35 to 45 are typical 6/9 or 5/8/5. 50 and 55 are 5/8 or 4/6/4. 60 to 80 4/6 or 4/6/4. 85 to 100 3/5 or 3/5/3. Now these are rough standards and not hard numbers. But the general idea of JJs reducing the movement needed holds true in most weight classes do to the maneuverability.
Lights need speed as scouts, interceptors, and skirmishers. Mediums need ok speed as the main light cavalry. Heavys pre-3050 usually run 4/6 min as the main bruisers but in 3050 and later 5/8 gives added flexability on designs that can afford the XL. Assaults have and will be the heavy hammer to punch the hole the mediums and heavies have started to form. Guns guns and more guns.
Second Question is role?
Scout, Interceptor, Skirmisher, Strike, Assault, Heavy Cavalry, or Heavy Support. Note these are my own categories.
Scouts and Interceptors need pure unadulterated speed. Scouts with light guns and armor in exchange for speed and sensor packages. Interceptors with high speed combined with guns and as much armor as can be spared so as to engage and slow a force or recon until the big guys arrive. These are your Locust, Jenners, and Firemoths.
Skirmisher need speed and guns more then armor in order to hit and fade. Again, Jenners, Javalins, and Kitfox.
Strikes are faster than Assaults with less guns and armor in exchange for speed in order to cover distance and lay the hammer down fast then pull back to the cover of Assaults. They are your first real soldier unit that uses its added maneuverability to destabilize the enemy. In comparison, Assaults are slower but more heavily and reliably armed. They are designed for long duration and punishment. Strike: Wolfhound, P.Hawk, and Dragon. Assault: Hunchback, T.Bolt, and Marauder.
Heavy Cavalry is a heavy and assaults attempt at being a strike unit. Added speed at the expense of duration while retaining or enhancing their ability to deal damage. Cyclops, Victor, and Timber Wolf.
Heavy Support is lots of long range guns. Who needs speed, we got guns. As odd as it seems, Panther, Trebuchet, Warhammer, and Stalker.
Third question is how maneuverable?
Will the thing have jump jets or not? Will it likely fight on rough terrain or open terrain? If it will have JJs and fight in rough terrain then you can loose a notch of speed for maneuverability. If it will have JJs but only to supplement its open terrain ability then you should retain your speed. If no JJs then who cares as you'll maintain the proper speed for weight class and role.
After these question you then keep in mind the metagame aspect of the numbers.
0/3/5/7/10 the magic numbers of BTs movement phase. You already know these numbers as you stated. You need to keep them in mind though.
If you have a light scout without jump that is likely going to encounter bumpy terrain then an 8/12 ensures that you can walk up or down 1 level or turn 1 facing without running and still retain its +3 move mod. However, if the terrain is likely to be hell then 9/14 is better. 7/11 should be reserved for heavier end scouts were the armor can compensate for the occasional +2 hit mod.
In comparison, if you have light scout with jump then 7/11/7, 7/11/5, or even 6/9/6 is plenty fast. On the turns when you need to cross multiple levels or terrain features or turn a lot the JJs are used. Given a scouts job the +3 to-hit to weapons fire from jumping is forgivable especial in light of +3 or +4 hit mod your building from moving.
Interceptors appear a lot like scouts and use many of the same rules. Your job is to slow the enemy while avoiding hits. You need to be flexible enough to either avoid being hit or hit your target hard. 7/11 is a good base speed with 8/12 giving the added 1 facing a turn while still only taking a +1 to-hit. However, 7/11 still allows you to gain a +2 hit mod while maneuvering while only taking a +1 to-hit mod or move into harass mode and give a +3 hit mod while maneuvering while taking a +2 to-hit mod. It is only the specialized interceptor that moves 6/9/6 as the base move speed makes it hard to stop recon patrols on open ground. These speeds are reserved for medium weight interceptors and mountain or rough terrain units. Remember, your fire power and armor needs to be good enough to withstand a short fight and while more speed means more maneuverability and strategic scale terrain covered it should not be gained at the sacrifice of weapons or good armor.
the Skirmisher is the odd ball of the weight classes. What matters here are the speed to close and the ability to put a lot of firepower on target quickly then withdraw to safety. It is best if you can survive after approaching but not as necessary. 7/11 and 6/9/6 are a good speed for lights and light mediums as they offer good hit mods on approach but use smaller engines then 8/12 or 7/11/7 allowing you to add more heavy weaponry. Armor needs to be good enough for a glancing blow on approach and the turn or two on target while maneuvering. For medium and heavy skirmishers [which can happen but come close to Strike or Heavy Cavalry] the armor needs to be thicker and the speed higher for their brackets. Mediums need to be 6/9 or 5/8 with or without JJs and Heavies 5/8. Designs that lack XL and can be crippled without destruction are great as potential skirmishers as the cost of loss is low and the possibility of salvageability higher.
Strike are lighter armored soldiers. They are not Skirmishers or Heavy Calvary. Higher speeds are good but need to be achieved while keeping to-hits down and armor retained. They need balance. 6/9 in lights, 5/8 in mediums, and 5/8 in heavies. With you speed you need a balance of weapons and armor. You will be battling on the front lines like any soldiers but you are more flexible in strategic and tactical movement. Your speed is a weapon and not a defense as it allows you to get an extra hex or face change or feature movement without increased to-hits. Your objective is to hit the enemy accurately while taking punishment as you maneuver the field.
Assault are the easiest. Heavy Armor, Big Guns, and Average movement. Light weight assaults can exist but do to their limited armor are notch units. Most Assaults are mediums or better. 4/6 and 3/5 are all that are needed. A 5/8 can be used on lighter mediums but reduces the gun load for maneuverability. Expect to get hit a lot and not maneuver much. 4/6 allows you that extra facing without add to-hit mods or reducing hit mods but on larger designs begins taking more weight than it should.
Heavy Cavalry is a heavy or assault parading as a Strike with big guns. However, the sacrifice is in armor and durability for speed rather then the strikes weapons and armor. The idea is to get several big guns in close quickly and open enemy units up much like Skirmishers. The difference is that the Heavy Cavalry does not withdrawal but stays in the fight as long as possible wrecking destruction. Heavies need to be 5/8 or better with moderate armor and a lot of firepower. Assaults are 4/6 with a concentration on maintaining firepower. These speeds allow you to close quickly, maneuver while maintaining to-hits, and over run enemy positions.
Heavy Support are designs that sacrifice speed for heavy long range firepower or lance support. Speeds of 4/6 and 3/5 are consistent across all weight classes as it allows you to move with equal to-hit and hit mods. Armor may or may not be thick but the guns can reach out and touch those battling other units. 5/8 and 4/6 are good speeds for lights and mediums as it allows them to move with or just behind the main body. The same with heavies and assaults at 4/6 or 3/5. Your concern is to-hits and the ability to gain position.
Now with all that said, i'll summarize the movement mod info. being +1 move above normal for necessary movement mods [0/3/5/7/10] lets you maintain your to-hit mod while maneuvering or maintain your hit mod while maneuvering. +2 allows greater flexibility but puts you into HUGE engine range for your movement bracket. Best used if you need to cover terrain fast, maneuver a lot, or avoid loosing hit mods on rough terrain.
Jump Jets are good when you need to cover rough terrain quickly, obtain position regardless of to-hit mod, or need to maintain hit mods to survive. Their addition can allow the option of a reduced ground speed as the JJs +1 hit mod compensates. JJs should usually be used at the movement mod brackets of 3, 5, 7, or 10 jets. Any thing else is for positioning purpose only. The addition of JJs is based upon the role of the design and personal play style. A scout can benefit from the defense bonus and ability to cover terrain. An interceptor the ability to cover terrain and gain position on the enemy. Skirmisher terrain, defense on approach, and positioning at attack. Strike tactical positioning. Assault should usually avoid but terrain. Heavy Cavalry the ability to cover terrain. And Heavy Support positioning.
Now opposite of being +1 move over bracket norm is being -1 move. This option needs to be balanced against role and the increased likelihood of being out maneuvered. It can allow thick armor and big guns but limits your tactical options greatly.
One last important factor that must be considered when looking at speed is Heat. A unit that is in the upper half of speed bracket can react to heat better then its counter part. A 4/6 or 6/9 with a heat of five looses no ability to generate a proper hit mod were as a 3/5 or 5/8 will drop into the next speed bracket. This means that in a pinch a 4/6 or 6/9 can continue to fight harder while a 3/5 or 5/8 now needs to cool down or alter its role. Jump Jets can reduce this effect as it is unaffected by heat but a 3/5/3 is taking a +3 to-hit for moving 3 hexes were as a 4/6 could still move 3 at +1 to-hit. For a design that relies on continuous accurate attacks the first is not as acceptable for prolonged fighting then the later. Again, however, the role of the design effects the choice for jump jets. A heavy support that uses terrain position and continuous fire rather than tactical position and accurate attacks can ignore the decreasing speed as it likely gains its hit mod from terrain and not movement.
Now as to your question directly, a 3/5/3 is the same as 4/6/4 when it comes to hit mod. However, as stated above the 4/6/4 allows you three advantages: extra ground maneuvering, tactical position, and the delayed effect of heat. 3/5/3 will work for any Heavy Support or Assault Class Assault do to the low concern of movement and the standard movement bracket for an assault.
The Highlander is a Assault Class Assault. It moves at bracket, can manuver in combat as needed, but has thick enough armor to allow an slow advance upon and enemy while packing A LOT of firepower.
The Gallowglas is a Heavy Class Assault. It moves at bracket, can maneuver in combat as needed, and has good fire power. It, however, sacrifice some armor for maneuverability. I would almost classify it as a Heavy Cavalry or maybe even a Heavy Class Strike. Its armor is 88 percent max and the JJs give it added maneuverability. And while its fire power is impressive, it appears a little light for a 70 ton. Max Damage is 37 in 3050 were as a 3025 Marauder is 35 and a 3025 Orion at 43. But then a 3050 Marauder only does 47 with 79 percent max armor.
The Highlander will cost you less, get you more, but slow you down when concerning strategic movements. Plus its far more durable then Gallowglas. However, as an Assault Class mech it will draw more fire than a Gallowglas.
So the question you need to answer is what role do you want to fill? Assault or the more blurred Assault/Heavy Cavalry/Strike? Does the extra hex of movement/position or extra ground maneuvering out way the firepower, armor, and cost?
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Oct-2008 01:02 Post subject: Re: BattleMech Speeds |
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First Question: Weight class?
I've learned the hard way that the commander draws fire. In fact, I've simply accepted this as a hazard of leading from the front, and started to use myself as bait. It works pretty darn well.
That in mind, I need a heavy or assault class machine to pack the necessary armor to keep me alive.
Second Question: What role?
The role type would be assault, with a smattering of heavy support. The idea is that I get a unit capable of taking a beating, and doing a bit of everything. The Highlander is ideal for this, lacking only a high speed. LRMs for indirect fire, smoke, flare and thunder rounds, gauss for heavy direct ballistic fire (which I love), SRMs for crit seeking, anti-infantry or fire starting, and medium lasers for solid back up armament.
The Gallowglas by comparison is far more energy oriented than I would like, and lacks the necessary versatility that the SRM and LRM launchers give through specialty ammo.
Final Question: What is the worth?
At this point, it becomes hard to argue the Gallowglas's strong points over the Highlander. More so because of the way I mix my lances. The Highlander is slow, yeah...but combined with the other 'Mechs in my unit I can still initiate small scale flanking attempts while the Highlander provides cover fire and a very distracting target.
As for the movement being...tight. That I don't worry about. I'm an excellent pilot, and unless I'm killed and have to be rerolled, that won't change. Jumping won't throw my aim off too much. As for strategic movement, having any 'Mech 3/5 will cut me down to that speed already. I don't leave people behind.
Summary of Pros and Cons (Not All Speed Related):
Highlander Pros:
Cheaper
Stronger Tactical Position with Weaponry
Tougher
Highlander Cons:
Slower
I'll have to work a bit harder not to be seen as another Rhonda Snord (Hey, sense of style is something I consider as a Merc.)
Gallowglas Pros:
Faster
Stronger Strategic Position with Weaponry
Gallowglas Cons:
More Expensive
More Fragile
In the end, the Highlander seems much more suited to a commander's machine, especially given my tactics and things I have noted. My tactics revolve around mixing weight classes, so I can always respond quickly to threats. For instance, my current lance is a Chameleon, Scorpion (Retrofitted with Jump Jets but a smaller engine), Marauder, and a Grasshopper which I currently pilot.
That's likely going to move to Chameleon, Scorpion (JJ), Marauder (JJ capable now) and a Highlander. The Chameleon and Scorpion can maneuver and flank, and the Marauder can do that to small degree, while supporting the battle. The Highlander mostly is designed to be a support unit and decoy of sorts. They watch it instead of the Chameleon and Scorpion, which are the real threat.
In practice this sort of strategy has worked well...until...
Recently, I had to fight a static defense. I didn't want to, but given the situation I was in, what I had available and the terrain I had, digging in was my only real option. So, in mountain forest, in the middle of snowy winter, my lance dug in for a heck of a ride. The battle went back and forth, and due to stronger positioning, as well as more than a little luck, I prevailed. However...the end of the battle haunts me.
At the end, the enemy commander, in a Marauder set himself up on a hill where he could snipe us, and suddenly, I had to go on the offensive. I had few jump capable units. That long, slow, slog through a snowy forest while under PPC and autocannon fire is something I will not soon forget. In the end, he did himself in, overheating and shutting down his own 'Mech. If he'd been more level headed, the battle could easily have ended in disaster right there.
In the future however, I need to augment my maneuvering options. 3/5/3 and 3/5 aren't very different...until you wind up in a forest. And I can't usually pick the ground I'm dealing with in a contract.
That's where this whole discussion came in. I started wondering what sort of speed it would take to keep my current tactics open, while increasing my ability to take a punch, as it were. Really, I was also wondering if 1) My tactics were flawed. and 2) They could still work on a slower scale.
Mostly, I just need to accept that as a commander, my job isn't to be a speed demon running around the map. My job is to stay alive, and try and keep everyone else that way. It can be hard at times to watch your personal desires and the necessities of war come to clash like that. 
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Oct-2008 03:27 Post subject: Re: BattleMech Speeds |
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And thus you've answered your own question with just a little developed intellectual presentation from Vag 
I would have to agree with your comments on the way the end of your battle turned out. I've been in similar situation. Though mine was in an urban area and I was trying to keep civilian casualties down while my opponents didn't care. Nothing like a Marauder perched on top of a 5 story building blazing away while you march down confining streets through fleeing civvies 
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Oct-2008 15:24 Post subject: Re: BattleMech Speeds |
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Talking with others usually spurs me to actually make a decision. Otherwise, I tend to vacillate. 
Kinda weird, really. I have no problem with tactics, force composition, supply estimates...but ask me to pick a 'Mech to pilot and I blank. There's just a lot of good ones. 8)
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Oct-2008 15:27 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds: Continued |
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Speed Preferences:
For light 'Mechs, speed is a crucial ability, and it is here that I am most inclined to pass on heavier weapons in favor of more speed. However, I have learned the hard way that jump jets are the bane of a light 'Mech. They need them, but it takes up much of what is left of their precious space. My forest story shows why a light 'Mech requires such features. That ground speed doesn't mean much if you can't use it.
For the most part, I prefer quicker light 'Mechs with jump capability, Wasp, Jenner, and the deadly Spector. They can range about the field as they like, and dictate how the battle unfolds against heavier units. Against lighter units, initative becomes really important...
There are exceptions though, the Wolfhound succeeds without jump jets due to a surprisingly hardy nature for a light 'Mech, and the Mongoose succeeds for similar reasons. Never lost a Mongoose or Wolfhound to enemy fire. But the state they managed to come back in is testament to their purpose as heavy strike units. (Well, heavy against other lights anyway.) In my opinion however, both 'Mechs would benefit from jump jet assistance.
Preferred Light Movement Profiles: 6/9, 7/11, 8/12, Jump Capability Highly Recommended
For medium 'Mechs, speed is less crucial. They need to be quick enough to outrun heavies and assaults if the need arises, but they needn't be jump capable as often. It still helps of course. For mediums, I prefer a moderate speed of 5/8. on open ground, this gives them a pretty hefty to hit modifier. Mediums working at 6/9 can also work, but it's a delicate balancing act. The Phoenix Hawk is probably the only good 6/9/6 to come to mind, though the Chameleon is close. (Mostly because it's a P. Hawk clone.)
So, the 'Mechs that fit my tactical and speed preferences among the mediums are the Phoenix Hawk/Chameleon, Dervish, Griffin, and Wolverine. These 'Mechs are all highly mobile, and have good firepower. The Dervish trades armor for weaponry, as does the Chameleon, but if you stay on the move, it doesn't matter much.
Slower 'Mechs CAN be tolerated in the medium class, however. I do demand that such 'Mechs carry jump jets to make up for this 'flaw', but so long as they are well designed, they can contribute well. Examples? The Blackjack, Enforcer-4R, and Wyvern come to mind. All 4/6/4, and all good machines. Just a touch slower than average.
I feel I should comment on the oddity 'Mechs of this group. The Assassin and the Cicada. Both are good 'Mechs I think, but you should keep in mind that their high movement rate is the exception, rather than the rule. Trying to shoot for mediums that move that quick is generally going to get you something expensive and worthless.
Preferred Medium Movement Profiles: 6/9, 5/8, with the occasional 4/6, as with before, Jump Jets are highly recommended.
For Heavy 'Mechs, speed is crucial only in a strategic sense, and for out maneuvering assault units. A good heavy unit generally moves towards the upper end of slow. A few specific units will manage to pull out 5/8 movement, but most of these rely on recovered technology to make much of it. As with everything, there are some exceptions.
First off, let me cover the unusual 'Mechs first this time. Or rather, the only one to come to mind: the Exterminator. The Exterminator features an unusual weapons mix with an unusual size and speed. It fits however, given the Exterminator's unusual mission profile. Again, a 'Mech moving 6/9/6 in this weight bracket is rare and not likely to be entirely helpful. (Some would argue that the Exterminator isn't that useful at all, but that's another discussion.)
Next up, you have the unusual 'Heavy Cavalry' element. Able to keep pace with most mediums and our maneuver heavies and assaults, these units are the power behind stabbing and flanking maneuvers. Examples of this type are the Ostol/Ostroc, Dragon, and Champion. (Also the Rakshasa, which I can't get until it's 'invented', but is a nice IS heavy cavalry 'Mech.) You may notice at this point that none of these 'Mechs jump. The Quickdraw does, but I tend to dislike it. Still, it fits in this category as well.
Next, you have the much more common heavy 'Mech, those moving 4/6, and generally not mounting jump jets. The Thunderbolt, Marauder, Warhammer, Orion, Archer, etc. These machines all carry heavy firepower, and more armor than medium 'Mechs. They are the backbone of any assault, unless you find yourself with a preponderance of assault machines for some reason.
In contrast, a few heavy 'Mechs mount jump jets, like the Grasshopper, Guillotine, and Catapult. The Grasshopper and Guillotine use their jets to outflank opposing heavy units in built up terrain, or to break enemy lines. The Catapult can do this as well, but generally only uses it's jump jets to find a better firing nest.
Preferred Heavy Movement Profiles: 4/6 with the occasional 5/8. Jump jets at this stage become more a luxury, depending on your unit and design, they may be helpful or they may not.
For Assault 'Mechs, speed is only critical in the strategic moment department. Assault 'Mechs are not generally called on to outflank opposing units. It can be done, sure, but it isn't easy. Generally, jump jets are fun here for the shock value, especially in a double blind game. "What do you mean the Atlas JUMPED?!"
Your standard assault moves 3/5, and doesn't mount jump jets. Some of my favorites here are the Challenger (Charger Variant), the Atlas (Natch), and the ubiquitous Stalker. These machines generally shun cover, and simply slowly advance on the enemy, weathering the fire. If possible, you don't want to have them slogging uphill or through forests, that's what your other units are for, specifically jump capable lights, mediums and heavies. If nothing else, the can distract the enemy while these slow plodding monsters wade up.
Some 'quick' assault units move 4/6, and make a habit of more mobile warfare. Examples of my favorites here are the Striker, Zeus, BattleMaster and Cyclops. These 'Mechs are generally a poor compromise, but used right, can surprise an opponent. The Zeus is, ironically, the best of them due to being a stand off fighter. The BattleMaster is better up close, which is difficult due to slow speed. It can still be a factor from a distance however. The Cyclops is the unloved child here. It's dangerous, but lightly armored, and slow (comparatively). Most enemies will not allow a Cyclops to close, given any choice.
Finally are the jump capable machines. These units are uncommon, but feature good tactical flexibility. The Victor, the Crockett, and the Highlander. Amusingly enough, all three were created for the Star League army, and two are 'LosTech'. The Victor is something of an improvement over the Cyclops, and will defeat nearly any other unit in rough terrain. The Crockett and Highlander are more 'general use' assaults. Though they feature heavy firepower, they're mostly just heavy 'Mechs on steroids. They work well in all terrain however, which is a boon for irregular forces. (Or those who fight them.)
I'm not touching 5/8 assaults. They don't even 'work' without advanced tech, and one might argue that even then, they don't work.
Preferred Assault Movement Profiles: 3/5 with the occasional 4/6, Jump Jets not generally recommended given the higher cost of them for assaults (in percentage)
Exceptions: For mercenaries, you can never go wrong with jump jets. After all, who knows where you'll be next, and what you'll need? Same thing goes for a commander. A commander should really use jump jets simply because it can get him out of a bad bind before he gets whacked.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 03-Oct-2008 03:50 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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Wow, what a great topic! I will return to it in length next week, don't have much time right now. (I only dropped in to have my own say about armour, strange coincidence)
To your original question: Assaults should be 3/5, Heavies 4/6 or 5/8 (depending on technologies).
Also, heavier Assaults should really never jump. Nope, not ever, really. 6-8 tons invested in what? The ability to jump around a wood / city? That really does not fit into my concept of an Assault 'Mech. At all.
Of course, your example of the Highlander is the one exception to that rule!  Couldn't have a non-jumping Highlander, that wouldn't do at all....
Until next week!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Oct-2008 11:41 Post subject: Re: BattleMech Speeds |
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| jymset wrote: | Wow, what a great topic! I will return to it in length next week, don't have much time right now. (I only dropped in to have my own say about armour, strange coincidence)
To your original question: Assaults should be 3/5, Heavies 4/6 or 5/8 (depending on technologies).
Also, heavier Assaults should really never jump. Nope, not ever, really. 6-8 tons invested in what? The ability to jump around a wood / city? That really does not fit into my concept of an Assault 'Mech. At all.
Of course, your example of the Highlander is the one exception to that rule! Couldn't have a non-jumping Highlander, that wouldn't do at all....
Until next week! |
Can't wait to hear your thoughts. As for jumping assaults, I was struck by some interesting things in the data I saw.
Victor, 80 tons, Star League Army
Crockett, 85 tons, Star League Army
Gunslinger, 85 tons, Houses Steiner, Davion and Kurita
Shogun, 85 tons, Star League Army
Emperor, 90 tons, Star League Army
Highlander, 90 tons, Star League Army
Yu Huang, 90 tons, House Liao
Sagittaire, 95 tons, House Davion
Marauder II, 100 tons, Wolf's Dragoons
Pillager, 100 tons, Star League Army
Note: I have chosen to leave the Black Watch off, since one can make the case it's just a Crockett variant. And a bad one, in my opinion.
The data feeds a couple of different conclusions. First, that the Star League army seemed to play a high value on the tactical bonus of jump jets. The Houses seem to have not developed the same fondness for it, though they still use original Star League designs.
Second, the designs with the longest battlefield span as battlers, i.e. being used the longest amount of time across the time line, are almost all under 90 tons, the exception being the Highlander. Anything larger, and some smaller designs, invariably uses an XL engine. The Shogun, Victor, Crockett, and Highlander all survived the Succession Wars. Not in high numbers, but they survived. The Pillager and Emperor perished. The Sagittarie and Yu Huang had not been invented yet, but I doubt either design would have made it through the wars in even a downgraded version.
Perhaps more amusing is the size issue. Most of the designs listed are heavy enough to require 2 ton jump jets. Are they worth it?
We've already established that for reasons of style, and it's tactical doctrine of 'Anywhere, Anytime', the Highlander's jump jets are forgiven. It mounts plenty of armor and firepower anyway.
The Marauder II also gets a by, since it's just a Marauder variant designed for maximum damage absorption. Compared to another assault it's size, it's not that great. But when you compare it to a Marauder, it's pretty good. Perspective will alter your opinion of this design.
The Sagittaire seems worth it, but the 'Mech is already incredibly specialized. Designed to annihilate the enemy in close quarters, this can be hard to do on the open field of battle. It's jets give it the ability to bypass buildings and trees though, to get range on its pulse lasers. The questions I have for this design don't relate to the jump jets actually. Mostly I have to ask 1) Why so heavy? Why not smaller? and 2) Why the XL engine? Admittedly, used as it should be, the XL engine isn't a big problem. I just hate expense in general.
The Pillager...oh, I hate having to do this...but...it sucks. Not on the battlefield, maybe. But the design behind it could be more easily produced in a smaller machine with less cost. My suggestion? 85 tons. Drop the XL, the extra heatsinks and add endo steel. You get a much cheaper version of the same 'Mech. Yeah, the armor's not quite as good, but I doubt you'll care much. I get the feeling the Star League's DQ isn't currently open to suggestions at the moment though. Heh.
Finally, the Yu Huang. Leave it to House Liao to screw a 'Mech up good. Now, I like the idea behind the 'Mech. But, as above, it's far too large. I can knock a good five million off the price by making a Victor variant with the same weapons. A 'Mech that the Liaos currently have access too, having reconquered the St. Ives Compact. In fact, I could probably knock the price down substantially if they didn't mind losing a touch of the weaponry, say the LRM10. Then I could drop the XL and give them a very deadly machine. 'Course, the problem with all of this is, they already have a better AC/20 carrier, the Tiger. Liao's R&D team is very hit or miss. They make some great heavy machines, but terrible assaults.
So the results?
The Highlander deserves it's jump jets, though to be fair, the design could be done on a smaller scale.
The Marauder II is not really an 'assault' if you look at the reason it was created.
The Sagittaire is over specialized, and could stand to be smaller.
The Pillager is too expensive for what it does.
The Yu Huang is FAR too expensive for what it does.
Few assaults jump, most of those are relics from the Star League, and a lot of the heavier units are too expensive or specialized to be of much use. It seems that for a merc, going smaller is the best. Those big guns will kill your budget. And LosTech is still the best tech.
Note: As it came in under the weight line, I didn't talk about the Gunslinger. Well, just to get it off my chest, I don't like it either. Too expensive. Could be done cheaper. And a jump of 2? Really now.
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5789
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2008 02:43 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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A little something i whiped together over the last few weeks. Here is a listing of every weight class and speed from 1 to 16. The numbers are the amount of tonnage left over after adding standard chassis, max standard armor, standard gyro, standard cockpit, and a fusion engine. The weights are listed by engine type: standard/light/xl. A * symbol means that a negative tonnage was achieved; a blank result means the same thing. Just because a weight lists nothing, a *, or a 0.0 tonnage does not mean it is an invalid design but only that special components and less armor will be needed.
http://members.cox.net/vagabond4/BT_speeds.htm
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2008 09:53 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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What's the fastest and slowest mech you've used in battle?
The Fastest was a spider with 10/15/10. Used it as a scout.
The slowest was a 3/5/3 Pillager...
Speed and maneuverability are life in this game.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2008 09:56 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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You've never used an Urbie, Sir?
Fastest 'Mech Used: OTT-7J Ostscout 8/12/8
Slowest 'Mech Used: UM-R60 Urbanmech 2/3/2
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5789
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2008 11:58 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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12/18 and 1/2, i was a crazy kid.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 17-Oct-2008 03:11 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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13/20 Zatopek (custom) running race, lvl1 rules, ultralights allowed
1/2 Andromeda (custom) monster mash, again lvl1 rules
| CO_17thRecon wrote: | | You've never used an Urbie, Sir? |
Or the Annihilator... or Fire Moth?
| Sir Henry wrote: | ...
The Fastest was a spider with 10/15/10. Used it as a scout.
... |
Wasn't that my Spider IIC? 
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5789
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Oct-2008 15:40 Post subject: BattleMech Speeds |
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What? did nobody like my diagram? See if do anything for you mooks again, 
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