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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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 Posted: 22-Mar-2006 14:43 Post subject: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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I've realized that I hadn't voluntarily played a 20-25 ton mech in level 2 combat for close to ten years. 20 tonners just seem to crumple on the first hit from a modern weapon. I find that I can get the same performance from conventional vehicles with a higher survival rate. XL engines just make it worse, and against clan weapons . . . the less said the better.
The worst part is, 20 tonners like the Locust used to be really good. I loved them. They weren't powerhouses, but they usually stuck around long enough to accomplish something useful. In 3025 play I'll still take one without hesitation, but then I know I won't be facing LPL's and Gauss Rifles.
So, is the 20 tonner obsolete in level 2 play? Or is there something about them I'm missing?
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 22-Mar-2006 17:42 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Abso F@@K lutley.
I love the Locust and can play it in LVL 2 games but I have a 2 page rant on what modern equipment did to the game. Mind you I like lvl 2 up to a point.
Simple, must move 10-15, be patient, and hope for big battles.
Honestly Light mechs in lvl 2 are true recon, no combat, or for comabt against other lights.
AWAD- Real men drive Locusts
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Mar-2006 23:33 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-03-22 17:42, AWAD wrote:
Abso F@@K lutley.
I love the Locust and can play it in LVL 2 games but I have a 2 page rant on what modern equipment did to the game. Mind you I like lvl 2 up to a point.
Simple, must move 10-15, be patient, and hope for big battles.
Honestly Light mechs in lvl 2 are true recon, no combat, or for comabt against other lights.
AWAD- Real men drive Locusts
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Agreed. But then that is truly what they should have been doing anyway. It still always makes me laugh when I see the comments like. "Oh it only has one gun so I am giving it a rateing of 1 or lower because it cant fight." Sorry just because its a mech dosent mean it is a fighting vehicle. the ability to defend itsself is all a 20 tonner should be doing. Other than that it should be corridinating with its company to get them in and get the mechs chaseing it off its tail.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 13:23 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Well, that's about what I thought. Back to the garrison recon detachment, Mr. Wasp Driver.
As to your two page rant on level 2 changes, I can imagine what must be in it. Not necssarily bad or good, but very, very different from level 1. Although I can say this about level 2 (especially Clan): you can finish a game in no time at all. If you have limited time, a Kit Fox on Kit Fox duel with elite pilots only takes a few minutes. A couple of lances of old Shadow Hawks could spend weeks trying to kill each other. 
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:14 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Well, old SHDs never looked like mech killers, for quick lvl 1 battles you need Commandos and Jenners 
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1470
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:19 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Or two UM-R60!! No high to hit modifiers for enemy movement here!!
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:38 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-03-24 15:19, Rudel Gurken wrote:
Or two UM-R60!! No high to hit modifiers for enemy movement here!!
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I said QUICK battles, you may fall asleep before these two get in range... even twenty steps before duel would take them ten turns 
To the topic:
20t = run, burn any vehicles in bath and massacre infantry, biting mechs is welcome, but be careful, they usually have bigger teeth
And be careful when you say obsolete, these obsolete mechs may show you what do they think about size 
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1470
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:48 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-03-24 15:38, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
I said QUICK battles, you may fall asleep before these two get in range... even twenty steps before duel would take them ten turns
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Hey! Don´t place them on opposite sides of more than one map!! And hey: they can run! (Even if it does not seem so! )
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:52 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Gentlemen don't run when they participate in duel
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 16:18 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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Hmmm . . . now I feel like piloting a giant R2 unit in the next game.
The Pirhana does have scary firepower (especially against infantry- yikes!), but it's one Large Pulse Laser away from disaster. I'm just thinking that too many weapons deal 10-15 points a shot at long range, and with pulse and TC technology those +4 movement modifiers aren't as safe as they used to be. Not being able to survive an AC 20 hit is one thing, not being able to survive a large laser is something else entirely. 
Still, it's great against other units; especially if infantry and tank gunners aren't as skilled as their mechwarrior friends.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 16:29 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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If there is anything able to kill you easily than you should change the map sheet you are standing on.
Mobility is 20 toners best friend, but it is just light combat unit that is (or at least should be) by far superior to any vehicle of the same category. Using it to stop heavier mechs is a waste of materiel. Mines and tanks should do this work
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 16:57 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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You hit it, change map sheets.
1) Most players play 1X2 maps, so Lvl 2 cripples the 20 tonner.
2) 20 tonners can no longer even skirmish or delay a medium lance.
3) The WAVE is dead
So that is my complaint. I play lots of lvl 2 and like it. Just why take 20 tons when you can get 40 tons to do almost all the same, expect move 12-18, and survive better.
Plus do not even talk about wasting space on a drop ship.
AWAD- Just use Stingers as mobile Stackpole bombs
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 27-Mar-2006 00:54 Post subject: RE: 20 tonners obsolete? |
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I still use 20 tonners. 40 tonners are my standard, but I'll use 20 tonners as scouts. Because of their speed, in scenarios where it is important that the players kill a mech before it opens up the distance too much, a locust or a wasp is a pain in the neck (particularly with players packing 5-8 mechs).
When doing unit combat, small, fast, 20-tonners can be a godsend.
Now, this is less true in open combat on a small scale. I'm reminded of a game I played with my brother where I brought a Highlander and a pair of archers, he brough two Catapults and some scouts (BV was equalized by tweaking the pilots). I killed his three scouts in four turns, and after that his Catapults were finished. I didn't lose a mech, though the Highlander had seen better days.
In rough terrain, woods, and cities, though (provided the 20-ton has a decent pilot), they are excellent for finding bad-guys, calling in artillery or air support, or guiding in Semi-guided LRMs. When I can't use my custum designator, I use a locust or a wasp to scout for my Whitworth's missiles.
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-Groucho Marx
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