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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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 Posted: 18-Oct-2005 14:51 Post subject: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Why do people feel that the Clans don’t mount XL engines in second-line mechs? Sure, a lot of the standard mechs mount standard engines, but XL’s are quite common.
Even from the first time the IS saw the Clan’s standard machines, XL’s were common: Vixen, Goshawk, Viper, Kraken- even some of the IIC’s (Jenner, Hunchback, Phoenix Hawk). Some of these may just predate omnimechs, but the Goshawk, Viper, and Jenner IIC are all fluffed as being recent designs.
The Steel Vipers even build new standard mechs with XL engines, and omnis with standard ones. Lots of second line mechs cost more than many omnis (the Kodiak costs more than any mech I can think of offhand). Surely cost isn’t the deciding factor when deciding which galaxy is issued which mech.
Also, isn’t it odd that costs are calculated in the same manner for the Clans and IS? Wouldn’t their completely different economic systems have some bearing on what each side considered ‘expensive’?
Any thoughts?
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 14:59 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Well, to be completely clear, the Clans don't use money at all, except in certain instances where they interact with IS economies. The Clan economic system is built upon trade and bartering. Give me two tons of HarJel and I'll give you two tons of Ferro-Carbide.
At least, that's how I understand the Clan economy to work.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 15:53 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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I seem to remember seeing mention of work chits or work credits somewhere. But those might just matter to the lower castes.
I suspect that Clans don't measure their 'Mechs in c-bills at all. But why complicate matters for the player; it makes comparison a bit harder if you've got two different monetary systems. And don't forget that all Clan fluff seems to be written from an Inner sphere perspective; perhaps ComStar. Everything is in c-bills in the same way that most everything I read is in US dollars. It isn't really; it's just written as if it were.
As for the 'Mechs. I'm not sure what to say there. My examples of the second-line 'Mech are things like the Supernova, Behemoth, Blood Kite, and Corvis: standard engined, usually with standard structure and armor. Some Omnis (Stooping Hawk) are standard engined, but that's because the Blood Spirits are poor. XL engined BattleMechs are likely either pre-Omni designs, or new ones for quick strengthening, like the Jade Falcon Vixen, or the Viper 'Mechs. Or maybe they're just changing.
It might also be that Omnis with standard engines are cheap (read: numerous) while standards with XL engines are less numerous, but need to be as capable as possible per machine. ::shrug:: Seems as likely as anything else.
A little off topic, but: what crackpot named the Viper BattleMech? There's already a 'Mech named Viper (Dragonfly); you can't have another.
_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 16:31 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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I think the reason is some feel the Clans are too powerful and thus need a brake on them or they will destory the game balance.
I don't see the Clans removing an XL engine from a mech just because it's a second line machine. Another reason folks may think the Clans don't or won't use XLs in IIC or second line mechs could be one or more of the following:
1) Very few true second line mechs have them to start with. Most of the SL mechs that went with Kerensky.
2) Freebirth are going to pilots these, so why waste the resources.
3) The idea that the Dragoons came into the IS with second line mechs and none of them had XLs.
4) Poor follow through by the authors and TPTB on following the established points and details over the years. (I am vote for this one)
Okay so that's my input. I haven't seen any reason to believe they won't or can't, and I have seen many of a custom made Clan second line mech mounting an XL engine. While we are at it, if folks are going to say no to XLs on Clan second line mechs, then how about NO to things like TargComps or Pulse Lasers on these same mechs...
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 16:47 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Quote:
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On 2005-10-18 16:31, Karagin wrote:
While we are at it, if folks are going to say no to XLs on Clan second line mechs, then how about NO to things like TargComps or Pulse Lasers on these same mechs...
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I wouldn't say no to it, because it's so much cheaper than an XL. But now that I think of it, I can't think of any second line 'Mechs with a TC.
_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 17:00 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Targeting comps, as I understand them, are supposed to be relatively rare, even among the Clans.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2104
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 19:56 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Quote:
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On 2005-10-18 16:47, StarRaven wrote:
I wouldn't say no to it, because it's so much cheaper than an XL. But now that I think of it, I can't think of any second line 'Mechs with a TC.
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Black Python (Viper)
Vapor Eagle (Goshawk)
Just to name the two that came immediately to mind...
Ruger
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 20:13 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Do the Clans really not use money? I know it’s not elaborated in the books/TRO’s (merchant caste business is less exiting than battles and intrigue), but surely there’s some way of quantifying their resources, even if the actual transactions are bartered. Each major house issues its own money, convertible into c-bills, much like the U.S. dollar today; most international transactions even today are measured in dollars, no matter what the actual transaction is. Wouldn’t the clan merchants have some way to determine if that two tons of ferro-carbide really is worth two tons of Har-Jel?
So what are they measuring that makes XL’s so expensive? Labor? Transport costs? Rarity of materials? Would any of these be the same for the Clans and IS- or even between individual clans or houses?
Half of the original Clan omnis mounted configurations that used the targeting computer; it seems fairly widespread to me (except for the Goliath Scorpions, maybe). They’re also fairly cheap, as are pulse lasers. A pair of LPL’s hooked to a targeting computer is cheaper than a LB 10-X-without ammo.
The Goshawk and Viper, as mentioned before, are both second liners that use TC and pulse lasers. They also use XL engines. That’s the thing: the major cost difference is always between XL and non-XL; everything else is just haggling over pennies. A cheap mech any one without an XL pretty much by default. Really, it’ll be a lot cheaper than an XL-engined mech of the same size no matter what weapons and fancy gadgets they do or do not mount.
Off the point, the IS didn’t know what the Clans called their omnis, so they just made up their own names. The IS calls one mech ‘Viper’, the Clans call a different one ‘Viper’. As I recall, both names were introduced about the same time (3055 in game time). I think Ice Ferret and Myst Lynx got reversed in the 3055 book, as well.
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 20:15 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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The Clans DO have a money system, but its more for comparison to IS goods and services. The Clans dont use money because 'The Clan will provide'.
_________________
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 20:24 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Quote:
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On 2005-10-18 20:13, Knightrunner wrote:
Wouldn’t the clan merchants have some way to determine if that two tons of ferro-carbide really is worth two tons of Har-Jel?
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Worth is relative. If I have an excess of engine shielding for fusion engines, two tons of such would be worth less to me than to you, who have a shortage. However, I need leg actuators for my new line of omnimechs, and I know you have some to spare.
I'll trade you my two tons of fusion shields for two tons of leg actuators.
See? Relative.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 00:35 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Ok, a lot of you are missing a little something in your replies here. The clans do not use money the same way as the IS. However the lower casts do use something, I don't recall exactly what. However, the costs are calculated for the clan mechs for this: Inner Sphere Black Market Clan Mech 150-200% of calculated cost. I don't remember the exact %, or even what book it was from... possibly the original FM: Mercs... but thats the reason that was come up with to fill in the reasoning.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 03:38 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Well, all TROs are actually ComStar reference books created for their acolytes (and published later for all IS forces), or it's just my opinion?
And with Viper there are two names
omni: clan VIPER, IS DRAGONFLY
battle mech: clan BLACK PYTHON, IS VIPER
that probably has something to do with clan invasion and unavailability of data from clan archives for ComStar. They simply used whatever names IS troops gave to clan mechs for ease of reference. Just like with Japanese airplanes in WWII (Kawanishi N1K1-J Shiden (Lightning) was known as George to US forces). In 3058 TRO the same names are already used by both sides, so ComStar had probably access to some clan databases, but old names simply remained.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 08:31 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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That or the writers forgot they had used the name once already...not like that happens, I mean how many Behemoths can we have...a mech, a vehicle (both 100 tons), and a dropship. But hey no confusion there at all.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 08:55 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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You! In the Behemoth! Step on that Behemoth and haul it back to the Behemoth! Now! 
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 11:59 Post subject: RE: Engines in the Clans' second line |
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Sorry about the length here . . .
Well, anyone who has bought gas recently knows that prices are relative even when dealing with paper money. The relative value is going to change from time to time and location to location. To prevent chaos in record keeping, the value is measured against a standard. The Clans may not print money bills or pay salaries directly to workers, but someone's keeping track of Clan resources. Assigning monetary values is the best way to do this.
Even North Korea uses money for this purpose; you can hardly run a large organization without keeping comprehensible records. Actual exchanges might be in goods, but they're measured in some way- probably not c-bills for the Clans.
That's sort of the point of my original post- surely there is some Clan with functioning XL engine factories, legions of trained factory workers, and rich veins of whatever material XL engines are made of. Since the supply would increase for them (versus the IS, at least), wouldn't the price (what the Clan considered their relative worth) go down? Unless they were keeping careful track of capital and labor investment and spreading it over the lifetime of the factory/ore vein?
Sometimes the fiction hints that some Clans give their warriors some pocket money to spend off hours. I vaguely remember Aidan Pryde and Horse buying each other drinks at a bar- they gave something the the bartender in exchange, but now I can't remember what it was (or whether they were in the IS at the time).
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