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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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 Posted: 07-Sep-2005 16:41 Post subject: Scouts. |
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OKay, having read several reviews of light mechs and noticed a trend, I have a question.
Why is a recon/scout mech given points off when it does not mount and fancy electronics?
I mean can you suddenly not scout without it after not having had it for what? 300 years? Suddenly if you lack these new gizmos you cannot see at all? Ever since the fall of the Star League there has been a drastic decline in the level of electronics gear available. Yet that has little hindered the scouting/recon abilities of such units. If a Locust hasn't had any BAP's, ECm, or TAG units for 300 years would it be unable to scout now that such equipment exists? I mean, when a mech or large tank goes into a copse of trees, it's kinda obvious. If any non inf/hover unit goes over open terrain that isn't paved they leave easily followable tracks. Do you need a computer to tell you that a set of footprints 2 meters wide and 3 meters long don't belong to any of the local fauna? Especially when it's rather box shaped and uniform in movement?
Just a rambling that has been bugging me of late.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 17:06 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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OMG LOL! That was hillarious. Thank you for voicing that wonderfully well thought out opinion. I am in 100% agreement.
Raven!
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 17:51 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Not knowing precicely what Seraph is complaining about (I spend far too little time in the mech bay), I'd defend the idea that recon mechs get counted off for not having the fancy stuff because, as the fancy stuff appears, it will obsolete prior models.
Sure, when no one has BAP or ECM, a standard Locust is a pretty goof scout. However, so was the Mk. 1 Horse before they invented the off-road vehicle.
After the advent of BAP, the Locust is simply outclassed.
Now, if someone is ripping on the Locust in 3025, that person is just full of it.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 18:20 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Hmm see for me the problem is seeing reviews that say something along the lines of "It dosent have enough guns and is only good for scouting, increase the guns so it can take down enemies" or "EWWW with only 1 gun you cant fight you need more" (yes I am paraphrasing but not by much).
So I guess for me it depends on what year the mech is. If its 3050+ it had better have the extra stuff. Without it, it is going to be at a HUGE dissadvantage. If its 3025 well then that is completely different.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 19:50 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-07 17:51, SaberDance wrote:
Not knowing precicely what Seraph is complaining about (I spend far too little time in the mech bay), I'd defend the idea that recon mechs get counted off for not having the fancy stuff because, as the fancy stuff appears, it will obsolete prior models.
After the advent of BAP, the Locust is simply outclassed.
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How is it, "simply outclassed"? Explain and defend!!
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 19:51 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-07 18:20, Stinger wrote:
So I guess for me it depends on what year the mech is. If its 3050+ it had better have the extra stuff. Without it, it is going to be at a HUGE dissadvantage.
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How is it at a, "HUGE dissadvantage."? Explain and defend!!
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 20:35 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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He can't. Btw, horses are still very good scouts. Heck I think the US army was using horses in afghanistan on hunting missions, I'm sure one or two of those hunters acted as scouts... on horses!
All you need is a good set of eyes, a basic sensor package, and speed to be a scout. BAP only comes in when you're looking for well hidden units on a battlefield, or as an anti-ambush unit. Those are best held on heavy machines, not on light mechs.
1) if its on a light mech, then that machine is lost or destroyed, leaving you with no future ambush springer.
2) Ambushes are not the primary force of a army, which means you need that light mech to go find the primary force.
3) An ambush won't be sprung on one light machine if they know a company is coming. They'll want to wait. More kills, more success. Let the light machine run around until it dies, cause it will without the rest of the family. That will be the thinking.
4) If your BAP is on your heavies, then they'll spot the hidden ambush and be able to start pounding with weapons that matter. So ambush machines are powering up and Mr. BattleMaster is tearing the leaders cockpit off while the rest of the company is going "oooh! Free scrap."
OH! And while that is going on, Mr Scout discovers the main force, reports back and bolstered by your easy victory over the ambush, your moral risen men charge down and crush the enemy.
Oh yeah. Now I want a beer!
Raven!
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 01:01 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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I'll concede the point about the horse, a little bit. For that matter, our Scout/Snipers do it on foot. For that kind of matter, a scout doesn't need the fancy stuff.
However, I think when Stinger and I say scout, we're thinking more like the advance forces of a column. These guys want to know the lay of the land, where the bad guys are, and then once they find the bad guys, get away with much speed and little damage. Thus, sensors which find the enemy in any way, shape, or form are useful, ECM in any way, shape, or form, are useful, and speed is useful. Guns are less useful.
A scout with BAP and ECM will be more versatile and better able to scout enemy locations in most situations than a Locust pilot using the Mk. 1 eyeball. In that sense, a later designed mech not sporting those things has a much more dangerous or much more narrowly defined mission profile than one with the fancy stuff.
In that sense, it can be the difference between a 4.00 and a 5.00.
Although, Raven and Sereph, I'm interested to hear an argument for what you would trade in for the BAP and the ECM that would outweigh the loss in versatility and defense.
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-Groucho Marx
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1454
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 02:04 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Hey! It seems that most of you guys think that if a mech hasn´t a BAP it has no sensors at all! Even a 3025-scout will not rely solely on his own eyes! Since the introduction of the BattleMech some 600 years ago scout-mechs were produced without BAP (even in times of the Star League!)!
A BAP equipped unit has advantages against a non BAP unit but this advantages are not as high as stated here!
BAP can find hidden units but if a light scout detects such a unit (that mostly is a machine able to deliver some serious damage) it will have real problems not to be blasted away!
So if you fear an ambush try a BAP-equipped heavy that can deal with an ambush-mech!
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 02:11 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Reconnaissance:
An inspection or exploration of an area, especially one made to gather military information.
Scouting:
To spy on or explore carefully in order to obtain information.
A scout 'mech is sent out to explore the lay of the land. Finding enemy bases, large encampments, strategic positions, etc. and then reporting their location (and possibly staying put to observe activity). Any reasonably fast 'mech/vehicle with decent sensors, a radio, and a pilot/crew with good eyes can be a scout. Hell, foot sloggers can be and are some of the best scouts around.
A recon 'mech is sent out in front of an advancing force, searching for the enemy. They require advanced detection/stealth systems, because such systems give a distinct tactical advantage: if you see the enemy, and he doesn't see you, you can call in friendlies (airstrikes, artillery, 'mech forces, whatever) to take the enemy out.
The recon 'mech marks enemy tactical dispositions, while the scout 'mech measures the strategic disposition. The two functions SOUND similar, but aren't.
[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2005-09-08 02:15 ]
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 02:37 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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That's an excellent way to put it.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 04:42 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-08 02:37, Gunslinger Patch wrote:
That's an excellent way to put it.
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Thumbs up!
And now to say something about the topic. People just prefer to play in certain ways, using certain types of units. What's so odd if they complain about a mech that's missing the thing they most want to see on it?
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 05:18 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-08 01:01, SaberDance wrote:
However, I think when Stinger and I say scout, we're thinking more like the advance forces of a column. These guys want to know the lay of the land, where the bad guys are, and then once they find the bad guys, get away with much speed and little damage. Thus, sensors which find the enemy in any way, shape, or form are useful, ECM in any way, shape, or form, are useful, and speed is useful. Guns are less useful.
A scout with BAP and ECM will be more versatile and better able to scout enemy locations in most situations than a Locust pilot using the Mk. 1 eyeball. In that sense, a later designed mech not sporting those things has a much more dangerous or much more narrowly defined mission profile than one with the fancy stuff.
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Thank you Saberdance you said what I was thinking when I look at a scout mech. The Ostscout was one of the more interesting mechs at the time because it did have the extra electronics and was able to do things that the locust could only dream about.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 05:34 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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To reviews: many reviews citing the lack of electronics are probably mine. That has some connection with the way I make reviews.
With review I express MY personal opinion on the mech and MY expectations on it. trying to speak for some group is pointless. As the review represents subjective, the more reviews are there the more subjective ratings and those in combination make the rating more objective. That's why I'm glad to see any rating on my mechs, even if I'm quite protective around them, I'm trying to explain any questions stated and answer to topics started around my reviews.
To scouts: I don't think that scout / recon mech needs to pack electronics to do it's job well, but I like scouts that do so, because any piece of equipment that may increase performance in chosen field for mech should be used (some kind high-tech-fiend complex). I think that lvl 2 scout should back advanced electronics, or it should be presented as raider / strike mech (that doesn't say that these cannot do scouting work or pack electronics, but this equipment is secondary for them)
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 08-Sep-2005 16:24 Post subject: RE: Scouts. |
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-08 02:04, Rudel Gurken wrote:
BAP can find hidden units but if a light scout detects such a unit (that mostly is a machine able to deliver some serious damage) it will have real problems not to be blasted away!
So if you fear an ambush try a BAP-equipped heavy that can deal with an ambush-mech!
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Depends on what you want to do with it. A powered down mech takes a second to power up. A fast mech can get away from it and lose it in the terrain. Meanwhile, the ambush is screwed up, the scout/recon mech's forces know the enemy are in the area, and can deploy their forces for a fighting advance rather than a road march.
If your unit is on Patrol, then BAP on a mech-crusher makes perfect sense, but these are two separate missions.
Quote:
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From Warhammer:
Reconnaissance:
An inspection or exploration of an area, especially one made to gather military information.
Scouting:
To spy on or explore carefully in order to obtain information.
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I wasn't thinking in these terms, but that sounds about right. This would be what I mean by a limited mission profile or more dangerous mission profile for a non-fancified mech. With the extra equipment, the mech can do both jobs pretty well. Without, it's more dangerous to do recon. Though I wouldn't want to go scouting without at least a good ECM system.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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