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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
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Location: United States
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 Posted: 18-Oct-2005 16:51 Post subject: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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Do you think that pulse lasers backed by a targeting computer are always munchy? I'm specifying this as Inner Sphere tech only, to get a true opinion without throwing the superiority of Clan pulses into the mix.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 19:29 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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You need more then a yes/no answer set for this one.
The PL/TC combo becomes munchy when it's on a mech that can fire ALL of it's weapons, run and or jump without building up any heat at all, has max armor, max speed for it's weight class, and then to top it off the pilot is 2 gunner or better. And this all BEFORE the munchkin adds in natural gunnery etc...then insits on a lance or company of similar mechs etc...
Having some pulse weapons and a TC is fine, but those shouldn't be your sole weapons selection, and if they are, then balance needs to be there, having this mech over heat some would be a great way to give it balance. Or something that evens out it's use of the two systems.
So I feel that times the two can go together, but it's way to easy to abuse these two when they are used together and thus defeat the whole idea of a system to help the other systems on a mech.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8053
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 20:04 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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I agree with Karigan, but I'd like to add that the BV for the use of the two together isn't high enough. There should be a BV multiple when the two are used together.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 21:28 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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The shorter range of the IS pulses is a huge drawback. Combined with the higher weight of Inner Sphere targeting computer and large pulses; this trick is much less effective than for similar Clan designs.
No mech fast enough to get into range will be able to carry much armor or firepower. Think of the Wraith. To get the same firepower, you'd have to sacrifice three tons of armor, jump jets, or engine size. Can it afford to downgrade any of these? Probably not.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Oct-2005 23:37 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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On 2005-10-18 21:28, Knightrunner wrote:
The shorter range of the IS pulses is a huge drawback. Combined with the higher weight of Inner Sphere targeting computer and large pulses; this trick is much less effective than for similar Clan designs.
No mech fast enough to get into range will be able to carry much armor or firepower. Think of the Wraith. To get the same firepower, you'd have to sacrifice three tons of armor, jump jets, or engine size. Can it afford to downgrade any of these? Probably not.
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You haven't seen some of the munchkin mechs that have max speed for the weight class, max armor and pulse/targ combos that seem to be the sole and only mech that get's played to death at convention games that allow players to use their own mechs. Then these same folks who can only seem to play the game with these monsters get up set if they are told that those mechs are munchkin etc...
You can build any weight class with all the bells and whistles using Clan tech Pulse/Targ combo and get the best of the best out of it for next to no cost in both BV and price. And I am willing to bet that if you do this and then run nothing but this mech each and every time you play folks will either do one of two things, they will not want to play if you are going use "THAT" mech again, or they will all team up and gang bang your mech to scrap.
IS tech, the same can be done, there are examples here int he TechReadout as well as on the numerous BT boards out there. Given time and the want to win at all cost the munchkins will find ways to use loopholes in the system to get the targ/pulse advantage on their mechs every time.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 10:12 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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It's not just the pulse/TC combination, it's the player.
He's the same guy who demands to use extended movement modifiers when he brought ultra-speedy light mechs.
He's the guy who will go crouch in a cramped corner of the map if he brought the slowest mech. He'll refuse to move unless his initiative roll lets him move last (or late enough).
If you play for some kind of score he'll be calculating it during the game. No sense in winning without getting as many points as possible! A TC gets useful here, so you can make sure you hit the area that nets you the most points. 
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 11:56 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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Which in turn ruins what was intented to be an interesting combo and turned it into something that become sunomous with munchkinism.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 12:27 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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It's kind of sad that some players would ruin everyone else's fun with a 'loophole lover'.
I'm not sure I'd even want to play in a tournament where players I don't know can use their own Level III mechs. The only cons I've played at had strict rules about tonnage, minimum/maximum speed, etc- if you were even allowed to use non-standard designs.
I've enjoyed games where the GM runs a 'predator'; some outside force that can be used against a player who is excessively rules lawyering or camping (in a free for all). It was usually an air strike, but could be as simple as a previously hidden infantry unit popping out right under you. Keeps people playing fair, but the GM has to be completely impartial and have a clear head or it just makes the game worse.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 12:37 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-10-19 12:27, Knightrunner wrote:
It's kind of sad that some players would ruin everyone else's fun with a 'loophole lover'.
I'm not sure I'd even want to play in a tournament where players I don't know can use their own Level III mechs. The only cons I've played at had strict rules about tonnage, minimum/maximum speed, etc- if you were even allowed to use non-standard designs.
I've enjoyed games where the GM runs a 'predator'; some outside force that can be used against a player who is excessively rules lawyering or camping (in a free for all). It was usually an air strike, but could be as simple as a previously hidden infantry unit popping out right under you. Keeps people playing fair, but the GM has to be completely impartial and have a clear head or it just makes the game worse.
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When I GM I do something quite similiar. Usually an air strike or hyper accurate arty salvo 
Tends to put them back in line when that Arrow IV missile hits them dead on, or the shell from a Long Tom.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 19-Oct-2005 15:08 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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Open plain and Urbie armed with SPLs and TC. Is that munchy? No, so my answer is clear, not always.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Nov-2005 22:12 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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BUT, that is with a GM run game, not a simple pick up game or an open melee fight at a con. The folks who will abuse the pulse/TC combo are the ones who feel the need to win no matter what.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Nov-2005 22:23 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-10-18 19:29, Karagin wrote:
You need more then a yes/no answer set for this one.
The PL/TC combo becomes munchy when it's on a mech that can fire ALL of it's weapons, run and or jump without building up any heat at all, has max armor, max speed for it's weight class, and then to top it off the pilot is 2 gunner or better. And this all BEFORE the munchkin adds in natural gunnery etc...then insits on a lance or company of similar mechs etc...
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True, it's not just a yes or no thing. A slow 'Mech with some pulse lasers tied to a TC isn't really munchy.
I was just wondering if anyone thought that pulse+TC was munchy in and of itself. That's why I did the poll as I did. And I'd like to hear from the five people who said yes.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Nov-2005 01:16 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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One thing people forget about the pulse TC Combo is the low damage to weight ratio while you are accurate You loose a lot of damage potential. My perfered combo is to use ER small lasers with a TC on a high speed mech or hovercraft. A battery of 6-10 of these weapons depending on the chassis can dish out a lot of point blank damage I like to charge in fast ,to the rear arc if possable and just rip and roar. individualy 3 points of damage or 5 if clan does not sound like much but when you have a whole bunch of weapons dishing that much out, it can hurt a lot. Even the largest mech has to take pause when confronted with a load like that. my 25 ton Blizzard F can deal 40 points of damage with 8 ER small lasers and a TC that has a total weight of 5 tons. A load of pulses does nowhere near that. I will stick with my ERs thank you very much.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 11-Nov-2005 02:49 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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Just out of curiosity, have you tried micros in this role (I didn't)?
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Nov-2005 05:04 Post subject: RE: Is the pulse/TC combo always munchy? |
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On 2005-11-11 02:49, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
Just out of curiosity, have you tried micros in this role (I didn\\\'t)?
[/quote]Well I just went over my files and these are the mechs that have primary Small laser loads only two have micro\\\'s and one of them is a custom Micro heavy. 2 heat 3 damage range 1-2-3 The amazing thing is that with 20 differant configurations I did not do an ER micro version of the Blizzard. I will have to correct that error!
Clan mechs
Blizzard 25 ton bi-ped omni L3 12-18 (24-30)
Prime 6 ER 2 heavy small TC
D 8 Heavy small TC
P 12 Micro Heavy TC
Ice Hellion 25 ton Quad omni 10-15 (20)
B 10 ER smalls TC
H 7 Heavy smalls 4 LMG TC
Ice Guardian 15 ton omni 10-15
C 7 ER small
D 7 Heavy small
F 14 ER Micro
Yeti 45 ton omni 8-12 ( 16-20)
F 10 ER smalls TC light active probe.
Non-Clan
Harley-Davidson
HD-1 series 15 ton 10-15
G 5 ER small SRM 2
HD 2 Series 15 ton Quad 10-15
C 5 ER small
HD-4 Series 10 ton 7-11
C 4 ER small
HD-5 series 15 ton 10-15 (20)
B 5 ER small
HD-6 series 15 ton 13-20
A 4 ER Small
HD-8 series 10 ton quad 4-6
C 4 ER small
HD-9 series 20 Ton Quad 10-15
C 8 ER small 1 ER medium
[ This Message was edited by: Motown Scrapper on 2005-11-11 05:06 ]
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