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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 03-Mar-2005 14:31 Post subject: Old school question time... |
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Back in the 4th Succession War, should the FedSuns gone deeper into CapCon space taking more planets with the main goal of Sian as the main goal?
Or is what they took all they could hold without being overextend and risking losing a lot of their gains to a CapCon counterattack?
Let's hear what you guys think on this one.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 15:06 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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They should have done what was in their greater strategic interest.
A broad front war is good if you want to take territory and secure it. If you just want to knock the bad guys out of the fight, you do a deep strike.
I think the biggest problem was that the FC overextended itself across two fronts. They should have deep-striked the Cappellans or the Combine, rather than getting bogged down on both fronts as they did.
Had they deep striked the Capellans, they likely would have been able to avoid the fiasco which was the 3039 war.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 16:49 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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I believe that despite the alleged honour of the Federated Suns, the strike against House Liao was motivated by self-interest.
Had Hanse Davion truly being interested in overthrowing Max Liao, he would have struck Sian with a massive force to finish off the ruling House and decapictate the Capellan Confederation. But he did not.
He went for a territory grab instead. This effectively secured a large swath of space and helped to open up the Terran corridor.
--end--
More later, have to go to work...
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 17:02 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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I agree with the deep strike theory, taking out the head of the Capellan Fed would have brought the rest of the disarrayed Federation to its knees rather quickly. The destruction of the figurehead kills any resistance very quickly.
i.e, after the fall of Berlin, the S.S' was supposed to retreat to Berchesgaden and mount guerrilla strikes. This was the S.S, the emblem of Nazi germany. However resistance was vurtually none existant because there was no point in fighting for a dead cause.
I think the same would happen with Liao, if Liao itself is dead, there would be no point in fighting for them. I get the image that the states within capellan space would war with each other as they vied for power, its happened so many times in the past. And has always made easy pickings for other powers...
Enter Davion 
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Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 17:03 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Oh, but of course.
I was, however, surprised that Davion didn't absorb all of Liao space:
They had the military might.
Kurita was still held in check by Steiner pressure and the Dragoons' shenanigans.
Marik was bloodied only superficially, but, simply put, totally lacked the balls for a major conflict, something that was totally obvious.
Liao's defensive capabilities compared to Davion's might were a joke.
Also, as pointed out above, Davion would have had an easier time holding the moral high ground if he had actually gone the whole nine yards.
But then again, it would've been difficult to pacify the complete area of a rival house. Thinking Chaos march here.....
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 17:18 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Why pacify? Simply removing the ruling power of the region would create a power-vacuum. When the stuff stops flying (quite some time later), you can then move back in relatively easily, since everybody's already beat the snot out of themselves. You can then focus on the real threat (as it was at the time): the Dragon (who is our bestest-best buddy now. Go snakes!), and finally, finish off the Free Worlds League. Naturally, such a feat would take decades, if not a century or more, but it could be done.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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bladewind
Free Rasalhague Republic
Major General
Joined: 02-Oct-2004 00:00
Posts: 1054
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 18:54 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Chaos March was named Chaos March for a reason. It will be hard to hold onto the planets if everyone is starting riots every 2 hours.
unless FedCom went the Draconis way of putting down riots of course. 
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5653
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 19:22 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-03 16:49, Erenon wrote:
I believe that despite the alleged honour of the Federated Suns, the strike against House Liao was motivated by self-interest.
Had Hanse Davion truly being interested in overthrowing Max Liao, he would have struck Sian with a massive force to finish off the ruling House and decapictate the Capellan Confederation. But he did not.
He went for a territory grab instead. This effectively secured a large swath of space and helped to open up the Terran corridor.
--end--
More later, have to go to work...
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I think everyone is forgetting a key peice of information as to why striking at the head of the snake was not possible. three words:
Candace Aldar-Liao. [sp?]
To strike at her family would have ment her involvement would have been forfit and one of the greatest aspects of The Fox's plan would have been compromised.
This possibly also compounds on why Davion did not goble up the confederation. She may have loved Justin and even may have viewed Davions as a better way for her people, but it was only to a degree. I note this point by mentioning St. Ives which was not apart of the FS in any way but theory. Yes, FS provided aid and even garrison units, but Hanse made no move to annex St. Ives.
Something to think on.
Another question this will bring is this: why didn't hanse remove Liao from power and place Candace as a puppet governer? my opinion is simply this, Candace loved her people but simply did not want the celestial throne. This is why she ruled ST. Ives but pressed no claim on Cappalen.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 21:55 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Okay, I had a nice long post written up to address some of these issues. BUT, the damn forum ate it so all I have to say is POO ON YOU!! Had several points and points of view but it refused to let the post go through. So I am in a bad mood sorry for the following words.
You are all wrong and nyah nyah nyah nyah. Poo-crapooO!! 
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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Moonlapse Vertigo
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Captain
Joined: 02-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 207
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2005 23:00 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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The Federated Suns contenued fighting as long as they could have. Diverting massive numbers of jumpships for the invasion was putting the hurt on the FedSun economy and their supply lines were stretching out. Being under inderdiction from ComStar was also hurting their communications, the Federated Suns own "black box" system could only do so much. The Combine was finally finishing the Dragoons, and would soon be able to start a large invasion of the Draconis March. Davion had to make peace as they could not contenue the fighting any longer.
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On 2005-03-03 17:18, Warhammer: 3025 wrote:
the Dragon (who is our bestest-best buddy now. Go snakes!)
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Too bad you ruined that by invading them and getting your butt kicked.
edit: Seraph -1st rule of message boards... write and save all long posts on wordpad 
[ This Message was edited by: Moonlapse Vertigo on 2005-03-03 23:07 ]
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2005 02:27 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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If in theory, They had taken Liao out, wouldn't a huge power struggle between Davion and Marik ensue over the former capellan lands. This would bring conflict with FWL much quicker than Davion would have wanted.
With the Combine knocking on his door as well, Davion would have been squished between the two. While capable of handling itself rather nicely, it still would have been a very bitter fight,
Cue, the Fifth succession war!
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Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2005 03:15 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-04 02:27, Wanallo wrote:
If in theory, They had taken Liao out, wouldn't a huge power struggle between Davion and Marik ensue over the former capellan lands. This would bring conflict with FWL much quicker than Davion would have wanted.
With the Combine knocking on his door as well, Davion would have been squished between the two. While capable of handling itself rather nicely, it still would have been a very bitter fight,
Cue, the Fifth succession war!
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It's also possible that the Fed Suns might have just let the FWL take the worlds that it has always disputed with the Capcom...
A lot of possible what ifs here...
Like what if the FRR wasn't formed? The war of 3039 might have gone very differently and the Clans might have blundered into a new Star League.. (ie the Federated Commonwealth on a much larger scale..)
I know some fedsun/lyran chappies who feel cheated that this didn't happen
[ This Message was edited by: Erenon on 2005-03-04 03:20 ]
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2005 03:17 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-03 19:22, Vagabond wrote:
Another question this will bring is this: why didn't hanse remove Liao from power and place Candace as a puppet governer? my opinion is simply this, Candace loved her people but simply did not want the celestial throne. This is why she ruled ST. Ives but pressed no claim on Cappalen.
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I'm pretty sure you are right. There's a fairly good chance that the Fox offered Candace Liao the Celestial Throne.
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2005 05:09 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-03 23:00, Moonlapse Vertigo wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-03-03 17:18, Warhammer: 3025 wrote:
the Dragon (who is our bestest-best buddy now. Go snakes!)
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Too bad you ruined that by invading them and getting your butt kicked.
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What? After the clan invasion we're all buddies!
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2005 05:12 Post subject: RE: Old school question time... |
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The less is talked about the phony Stackpole war the better.
I use the NAIS Atlas and the Warrior Trilogy as toilet paper, or would do if it weren't so scratchy.
I am ignoring it and I'm not going to get involved in any argument about it, if you are a Davionista, you will think it's the gospel, no use about pointing out what a load of crap it is. Oh, for sure, the Federated Suns could have conquered the Capellan Confederation... after all, it has the advantage in numbers, but if it hasn't done so yet in three centuries, then it must be due to something, I say. And even if it could, at what price? Oh sure, conquer the Capellans and let the Dracs gobble up the Draconis March and drive all the way to New Avalon again.
I am only presenting one argument. Anybody familiar with the Battletech universe and the history of the Succession Wars should stop reading the NAIS Atlas the moment when in the first wave, a Davion invasion force with a stroke of the magic wand appears in Aldebaran out of the blue SIX JUMPS INTO CAPELLAN SPACE!!!
If you could pull out that stunt, the Succession Wars wouldn't have been a bloody stalemate for hundred of years.
No, the Capellan Confederation was not on its last legs, a final offensive to finish it off might have succeeded around 3000 when they were on the verge of collapse, but by 3025 the Capellans have made a comeback and its the Federated Suns that are overstretched and have reached the peak of their expansion. It doesn't matter what enemy they attack, the Capellans are weaker and the Draconians are stagnant, but a push against one gives the other the time to recover and counterattack gaining a position of strength that dissuades aggression.
In fact, by 3020 the only sensible course of action is declaring peace, even if it's the peace of the cemetery.
The only offensive action the Fed Suns can take with some chances of success is a combined offensive with the Lyrans against the Combine, and after years of fighting they might reduce it to a position similar as the CapCon...but in all that time the FreeWorlds and the Confederation grow fat at their expense.
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Memento audare semper
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