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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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 Posted: 09-Feb-2005 19:29 Post subject: Warships in BT |
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What does everyone think about warships in BT and how they should be built and deployed?
Should most be built on smaller scales like my Homeworld conversions in which the Frigates were all 150k tons or smaller and thus more widely deployable per ton of warcraft and thus more numerous in number and more easily deployed in patrols?
or
Should warships be fewer in number but larger in mass like most BT warships for use in large naval engagements?
In addition, do you think that the cost of producing warships is less there C-Bill cost but there mass?
I personely prefear a more widely dispearssed naval assest concept with dozens of patrol craft which can quickly respond to pirates and invasion in there assigned sectors vs huge warships that pose more a possible problem then a real physical one since the chance the ship will be nearby is substantially less.
As for warship cost, i am at a loss. my assult frigate is 8 bill with a Cameron Battlecruiser being 9 bill. they are 710k tons apart in weight. the McKenna is only 21 bill. I honestly feel i could get more then 2 or 3 frigate for 1 McKenna.
What is everyones thoughts?
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 19:44 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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(Please keep in mind that I really have no idea how to design a ship in Battletech, and have no concept of how much things cost.)
I would go more for a patrol ship/frigate/destroyer setup. Numerous smaller ships being widely deployed, supported by heavier ships at strategic points. Battleships, for example, would only be deployed into the most important assaults, otherwise they would be stationed with a battlegroup over an important world. There would be Lithium-Fusion equipped vessels designed as fast-response craft, mostly of destroyer size. Standard battlegroups would be lead by heavy cruisers. Minimally-armed patrol ships would be deployed all over.
Just the $0.02 of a newbie.
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Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 20:28 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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I think a mix would be better, smaller ships in more numbers, and a few larger vessels, like battleships and such.
That to me would allow for the naval engagments to be larger, yet at the same time more hotly contested and thus major events in the universe of BT. Right now they seem to be more of okay they happen, and then off to the landings and the fighting there.
The high end cap that BT has 2.5 million tons) is I feel on the large end and allows from unrealistic warships, granted it's a lot of fun to have one of those monters with you and all, but sometimes the smaller ships are a lot more fun to fight against.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 20:44 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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Not to mention the cost of designing, building, and maintaining such a beast. it would likely spend most of its time in spacedock to keep operating expenses down.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 21:46 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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I'd think that neither is ideal. You'd want a number of smaller ships to patrol the borders, but also some cruisers/battlecruisers and a few (although not many) battleships. If you concentrate only on big ships, you won't have many ships to spread around. So you might have nothing where you need something. But if you have no big ships, someone with a big ship will roll right over the couple of little ships which were the only thing close enough to put into the fight. Of course, both of these can happen anyways, but a mixed fleet keeps them from being as likely.
As for the cost question, I don't understand. If you don't measure the cost of a WarShip in c-bills, how else do you measure it?
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On 2005-02-09 20:28, Karagin wrote:
The high end cap that BT has 2.5 million tons) is I feel on the large end and allows from unrealistic warships
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Unrealistic space warships? How does that work, exactly?
Seriously, though (well...). Why is such a tonnage unrealistic? The monitors of The Shiva Option weigh up to 275 thousand tons. The superdreadnoughts of Honor Harrington weigh up to 8.5 million. And that might have gone up, since I've not read the new book and I don't know if he's yet made the Invictus-class anything more than a scary name.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 22:09 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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I agree that WarShips should be built in varied sizes to be most effective. Thats why I TRIED getting people to come up with full battlegroups (mine is still being worked on) because its more realistic to have 4-6 destroyers for every battleship. The group I'm creating is a strategic one, and has 1 battleship, 2 heavy cruisers, 6 light cruisers/frigates, 8 destroyers, and 10 corvettes. I'll also probably add a few patrol ships (100,000 tonners mounting minimal weapons but can be detached from main group as scouts to other sectors). Like I said though, mine is still a work in progress.
As for size limitations.... I don't see how it matters much in space. I like the 5 mile long Super Star Destroyers from Star Wars myself. As for upkeep on a huge ship, well, that is what the crew and spare parts are FOR. And even a 2.5 million ton monster would only need to be in spacedock for 4 months out of every 3 years by my guesstimations, barring needed repairs for combat damage of course. The only difference between that single large ship and several smaller ships massing same total tonnage (because the smaller ships would still have about same spacedock timings as the huge monster of 4/36 months) is that the smaller ships can be rotated through dockings while the large one has no replacement when its in dock.
But anyways, thats my ramble.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 22:14 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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Okay what I meant was that with the high cap of 2.5 million you get redundant ships pretty fast.
The idea here is while a house can afford one maybe to 2.5 million ton warships they won't be out there fighting in every battle. Hence the need for the lighter vessels to be more different in price and ability.
Vagabond is right, the cost issue is the part that is on the odd side. Most of it comes from the docking collars. Those alone can triple the price of ship just as XL engines do to mechs.
If something could be done to give a decent and believiable price setting to the warships I think it would really help out.
The ships in other sci-fi games are matched against similar vessels OR numoures smaller ones. And even then one side has fewer super ships and tries to get the enemy to do things so as to allow the super ships to be depolyed and used in a manner fitting to them.
If you look at the RenLegion ships they are massive in size and weight and yet all of them have very similar weapons lay out and types. And looking at the ships in the Robotech games and movies one finds even more oddites about size and weight and cost.
Try this strip out the docking collars of a vessel and look at the price of the two ship then. Note the weight and cost of the collars and see if they are worth it for a warship in BT...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 22:22 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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Why would a warship carry dropships? That's what transports are for. Small Craft like shuttles, boarding craft, lifeboats, etc. I can understand, but why dropships?
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2005 23:29 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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The only real use I see for a WarShip to have docking collars is for docking cargo DropShips directly, which makes resupply easier.
But you can also use them to fix flaws in your design. Not mounting anti-fighter weapons? DropShips can do that. Not carrying fighters? DropShips can do that, too.
That's the problem with the Fox and Avalon. They carry so many docking collars that it more than doubles their cost.
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On 2005-02-09 22:09, ralgith wrote:
I agree that WarShips should be built in varied sizes to be most effective. Thats why I TRIED getting people to come up with full battlegroups (mine is still being worked on) because its more realistic to have 4-6 destroyers for every battleship. The group I'm creating is a strategic one, and has 1 battleship, 2 heavy cruisers, 6 light cruisers/frigates, 8 destroyers, and 10 corvettes. I'll also probably add a few patrol ships (100,000 tonners mounting minimal weapons but can be detached from main group as scouts to other sectors). Like I said though, mine is still a work in progress.
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I gave some thought to your battle group challenge, ralgith, but I didn't quite understand where you were coming from. I'm very 3060s, and very fluff oriented, and the numbers you're talking about for your "battlegroups" are larger than the entire navy of any Successor State. Except maybe the League, but they're just cheating wobblies and so don't count. 
The rate you mention, four to six destroyers for each battleship, is accurate, but only across an entire navy. But keep in mind that no current Successor State navy will contain more than 30 ships for years to come. If you've got only 30 ships, you'd want something closer to two destroyers for every cruiser. WarShips are such huge investments, and each is such a huge percentage of the fleet, that the FedCom (for example) has vice admirals commanding them, instead of captains.
Given that, I can't see how anyone in the BattleTech universe would form such a group.
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"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2005 08:55 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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I gave some thought to your battle group challenge, ralgith, but I didn't quite understand where you were coming from. I'm very 3060s, and very fluff oriented, and the numbers you're talking about for your "battlegroups" are larger than the entire navy of any Successor State. Except maybe the League, but they're just cheating wobblies and so don't count.
The rate you mention, four to six destroyers for each battleship, is accurate, but only across an entire navy. But keep in mind that no current Successor State navy will contain more than 30 ships for years to come. If you've got only 30 ships, you'd want something closer to two destroyers for every cruiser. WarShips are such huge investments, and each is such a huge percentage of the fleet, that the FedCom (for example) has vice admirals commanding them, instead of captains.
Given that, I can't see how anyone in the BattleTech universe would form such a group.
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Ah, yes. I was just speaking of making something purely hypothetical, like what you would EXPECT to see once a specific navy has a larger fleet. For instance, though most of my ships are from the earliest days of WarShip come back, some are from the year 3270. I'm placing my fleet as if 200 years has passed. Of course I'm also skipping the DA and all that lame shiz.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2005 09:43 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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one thing I'd like to point out is that most ships "captains" are usually a higher rank than that.
You have to keep in mind there really aren't all that many warhsips out there and until recently even dropships were hard to come by. If memory serves it was not until recently that BT warships almost never clashed, being far to precious to waiste fighting each other, dropships on the other hand are a different story. If BT warships were smaller a handful of dropships could cripple or even destroy much larger ships, where as if warships stay as the massive lumbering behemoths that they are throwing dropships at them is a massive loss of resources.
I think the BTech writers tried to reflect happened in real life, Dreadnoughts were such massive investments that poloticians and commanders were so loath to maked use of them for fear of their loss. If memory serves there was really only one true Dreadnought battle and not a lot came of it.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2005 13:49 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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On 2005-02-10 08:55, ralgith wrote:
Ah, yes. I was just speaking of making something purely hypothetical, like what you would EXPECT to see once a specific navy has a larger fleet. For instance, though most of my ships are from the earliest days of WarShip come back, some are from the year 3270. I'm placing my fleet as if 200 years has passed. Of course I'm also skipping the DA and all that lame shiz.
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Oh. For some reason I never considered that. And with that, a rather strange idea becomes a very good one. I've already begun laying out this tactical group, with a few officers and ship classes. I'll have to make some entirely new classes for the lighter elements. Sounds fun. Expect a post in that thread soon.
Does anyone know what tonnages BT has different ship types? I know the line between heavy cruiser and battlecrusier is 1 million tons, and the line between battlecruiser and battleship seems tobe about 1.5 million. But I don't know any of the rest.
_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2005 14:27 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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Does anyone know what tonnages BT has different ship types? I know the line between heavy cruiser and battlecrusier is 1 million tons, and the line between battlecruiser and battleship seems tobe about 1.5 million. But I don't know any of the rest.
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Some of them aren't very clear cut. I've seen destroyers larger than frigates (which is bass ackwards) and even a corvette bigger than a destroyer.
However heres the "Chart" I made and follow...
Patrol/Scout Craft SC <= 100,000
Corvette CT 100,000-250,000
Destroyer DD 250,000-450,000
Frigate FF 450,000-700,000
Light Cruiser CL 700,000-850,000
Heavy Cruiser CA 850,000-1,000,000
Battlecruiser BC 1,000,000-1,500,000 (aka Light Battleship BL)
Battleship BB 1,500,000-2,000,000
Super Battleship BS 2,000,000-2,500,000 (aka Battledreadnought BDN)
Patrol Carrier CVP <= 500,000 (aka Mini Carrier CVM)
Light Carrier CVL 500,000-800,000
Carrier CV 800,000-1,250,000
Super Carrier CVA >= 1,250,000
Anyone can feel free to use this chart, or ignore it. It's just what I use.
A lot of the canon ships are slightly outside the ranges I use, and a couple are even WAY outside of it (780,000 ton Conqueror Battlecruiser/Carrier for instance, or 1,200,000 ton Nightlord Battleship) but I feel these numbers are more accurate, and in the case of say... the Nightlord I just call it a LBB.
Anyone who is interested in the ship designations (and yes I made a few up):
http://www.cygnusx1.info/ft/techlibrary/abbrev.html
Has several other classes of ships as well, that I didn't include in my table but I may some day add when I'm not so lazy.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2005 14:32 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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On 2005-02-10 09:43, Slythis wrote:
one thing I'd like to point out is that most ships "captains" are usually a higher rank than that.
You have to keep in mind there really aren't all that many warhsips out there and until recently even dropships were hard to come by. If memory serves it was not until recently that BT warships almost never clashed, being far to precious to waiste fighting each other, dropships on the other hand are a different story. If BT warships were smaller a handful of dropships could cripple or even destroy much larger ships, where as if warships stay as the massive lumbering behemoths that they are throwing dropships at them is a massive loss of resources.
I think the BTech writers tried to reflect happened in real life, Dreadnoughts were such massive investments that poloticians and commanders were so loath to maked use of them for fear of their loss. If memory serves there was really only one true Dreadnought battle and not a lot came of it.
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Actually there were a couple, and most were indecisive. However one was very decisive because the one commander was a fool and kept letting his enemy "cross the T" which of course means bring broadsides to bear as the top of a T on a line of ships forming the base of the T. It's very very bad when only half or less of your guns can face an enemy with all of thei guns on you.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2005 15:54 Post subject: RE: Warships in BT |
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On 2005-02-10 14:27, ralgith wrote:
Some of them aren't very clear cut. I've seen destroyers larger than frigates (which is bass ackwards)
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Destroyers are larger than frigates; at least they are everywhere else I've seen. Were I using your chart (which I probably will; thanks), I'd reverse the FF and DD as the first thing.
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- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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