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AcidQueen
Capellan Confederation
Si-ben-bing
Joined: 22-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 96
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 Posted: 12-Apr-2002 13:46 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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I have a player who is now an ex-Paladin--at least, until he completes this epic quest that I'm about to send him (and the rest of the party) on.
If he completes it, then not only will he get his Paladinhood back but he will also get his Holy Avenger and special mount--he will also, I hope, have learned something about what it means to be a Paladin. If he fails, he'll die.
The quest is pretty simple--and pretty dangerous, because it involves saving the whole of the Forgotten Realms from certain annihilation. It's so important that not only are the Faerunian deities getting involved in cheering on the party, but the Celestial Bureaucracy is getting in the act too--why, you ask?
Because there's a certain Greyhawk deity that's been loosed from his prison and has set his entropic sights on the sphere of Abeir-Toril.
So, I need some advice from the experienced DMs out there. This quest is going to last several game sessions--we're talking 2 realtime months at least. The party is made up like so:
1 Ex Paladin of 10th level
1 Priest of Solonor Thelandira of 9th level
1 Priest of Bacchus of 10th level (he fell through a dimensional rift and landed in the Realms from some place called "Roma")
1 Spellfire Channeler/Wizard of a combined 12 levels (Wiz 5, Spellfire Channeler 7--he's already got the Red Wizards and the Cult of the Dragon after him, along with several other baddies)
1 Rogue of 10th level
1 Fighter of 10th level
1 Fighter/Rogue/Priest of a combined 8 levels (Ftr6 Rog1 Pr1 of No-Cha--a halfling who the players freed from the COD and who has joined the party because he feels he owes them a debt of service)
The Spellfire Channeler is the really nasty one in the party (his level got pumped by 2 because he read a scroll that he found in Undermountain)--I've done a pretty good job of confounding his spellfire abilities for the most part through convenient use of NPC spells (so that encounters are challenging for the whole party, not just challenging for him and deadly for the whole party), and he's a good group-oriented player rather than a "blast and grab" type of player. So I'm not worried about him--but I still want the encounters to be a LOT more challenging than any other encounters I've run them through to this point and I want to force the players (especially the ex-Paladin) to use their noggins and think their way out of tight spots rather than just try to cut their way out.
Any hints?
--Camille.
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Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
Joined: 17-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 495
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| Posted: 12-Apr-2002 14:08 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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Something you could consider is to cut their numbers by forcing them to split up. Maybe requiring part of the party to do something on the side while the rest of the party continues forward.
Example being: Luke goes to Dagobah while Hand and Liea go to Bespin. Later they all end up back together on Bespin for the escape (except Han who ends up as art deco for Jabba, but that is a minor point).
The enemy is a diety? Throw some of his uber-powerful minions into the mix. Make it so the party would rather not fight lest they get crushed like the bugs we mere mortals are to gods.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8050
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Apr-2002 15:25 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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Splitting up the party is often not easy for the GM and shouldn't be used unless no other option is available--unless your group has some good, experienced roleplayers that can "help" the GM by not using the info they hear from the other half of the party.
I personaly prefer using creatures that the players have never seen before--ones that look harmless but have special attacks that cause all sorts of issues for characters.
My favorite is called Phycho-quirles, but my group started calling them CareBears and the name stuck. There 2ed stats are:
Climate: Forest, Plains
Frequency: Common
Organization: Pack
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Low (5-7)
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 2d12+6
AC: 9
Movement: 20
Hit Dice: 3hp
THAC0: 18
No of Attacks: 1
Damage per attack: 1-3 + special*
Size: S
Morale: Champion (15)
XP Value: 250
*The Care Bears swarm the party, trying to attack all party members in equal numbers. When the Care Bear bites a player they must save vs spell (straight save, no bonuses for race or magic). A success means nothing further happens. A failure causes the victim to take an addition 2hp of damage, and then must make a 75% (round down) Constitution roll before every attack that character makes. Failing the Con roll results in the player falling under the "spell" of the Care Bears and there is an (75% +1% per party member) of the player mistaking a fellow party member for a Care Bear every attack they make that round. "Infected" players must roll until the round is over in which the last Care Bear is killed, meaning those that players that are "Infected" will continue to fight until that round is over, with those making the Con roll realizing there are no more Care Bears to attack, and those failing still having the chance to mistake a party member for a Care bear.
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What I'm currently reading:
Rules of Engagement by Gorden Kent
The Iron Lance by Stephen R. Lawhead
[ This Message was edited by: chihawk on 2002-04-12 16:27 ]
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 907
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2002 12:30 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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First, I think this quest might be a bit over the heads of the PCs abilities. Taking on deities when the party is around 10th to 12th level can get deadly pretty quick, especially in the Forgotten Realms setting where 20th+ level characters are relatively common. I could easily be wrong here since I've never really run a campaign for a group that had advanced so far in levels, but that is my thought there. Make sure you have the deities use all of their abilities to the fullest, at least the ones that the PCs are challenging. Don't let them kill off entire pantheons without breaking a sweat like I have seen some groups do (talk about munchkin to the core!)
As far as the ex-Paladin's quest, I would seriously consider only allowing him to regain his status as a result of this quest. Receiving the Holy Avnger and the Bonded Mount should be separate quests, if for no other reason than to convey just how special these things are. Besides, I would think than in order to go on a quest for a bonded mount, and most definately before questing for a Holy Avenger, a PC must first be a Paladin in good standing.
Again, I think this quest is a bit much for characters of this level, especially since it is a redemption quest for an ex-paladin. Very seldom do other PCs (especially in a group of this size) appreciate being dragged into quest after quest that the paladin is on, if for no other reason than the fact that it tends to relegate them to a support role instead of as co-equal stars in the adventure. Two months of real world gaming time focused on one character can be a bit much; you'll have to make sure the others get a good share of the spotlight afterwards. Whcih brings the next concern: what are you going to do afterwards to challenge this party. Saving the world from an insane deity is usually the highlight of a career, at least if you want to keep these PCs down to earth. I've tried involoving parties in epic world-saving quests before and it works only so far: they either get tired of it, or after the crisis is over it is harder to come up with a challenge worthy of them.
You say you have at least one good roleplayer in the group, and where ther is one there are usually others to some degree. Separating the party has already been suggested. Internal dissention among the group would be a classic plot complication: if you can get a player to agree and have their PC secretly "sell out" or something (the evil deity tempts the PCs with godly powers if they but betray the puny mortals in their group, for example). Have the evil entropy deity play havoc with the Weave, and make spellcasting unreliable at times (like in a Wild Magic or Dead Magic zone). Yeah, the "malfunctioning magic" has been done before on Toril, but if I recall correctly it happened when a bunch of gods were all fighting each other.
Well, that's my two coppers. I'm not the most experienced DM, but I do think I am a fairly skilled one. Hopefully this will help in some way or another.
Ronin
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2002 16:33 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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I have to agree with Ronin, Make it a smaller adventure. And seperate items.
The horse could have to be rescued from somewhere. And when they get there. The horse does want to be rescued until the paladin can prove that he is worthyto bond with him.
The sword. Take a plot from the movie "Quest for Camelot" and have a ogre or troll or something that is big Really big. And really stupid. and most important. of good aglinment. Using the sword as a detal instrutment (A toothpick) And not wanting to give it up because it is the only toothpick that does not break.
And to really get the paladin to do these things. Have his deity place him on this task. And make to where he cannot complete the it. without the help of the party.
This is a great way to teach the paladin how to work around things instaed of hacking through them. And how to work with the party. Because he has to convice them to come along.
Ethier you will get a good roleplayer or a dead character out of the quest.
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I said to myself, "I Will soon have them beat!" Ignoring thirteen warriors laid at their feet, I gave out a yell and leaped into the fray... (Not very rational, but it'd been that kind of day.)
[ This Message was edited by: ICER on 2002-04-14 16:35 ]
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2002 17:44 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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The quest should be a way for the Paladin to show that he/she has the Leadership, Honor, Nobility and Faith needed to be a Paladin. Let the others help, the Paladin must take the lead in it. Don't tell him about it, let him show his ability.
Sir Henry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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AcidQueen
Capellan Confederation
Si-ben-bing
Joined: 22-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 96
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2002 21:24 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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Quote:
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On 2002-04-14 12:30, Ronin wrote:
First, I think this quest might be a bit over the heads of the PCs abilities. Taking on deities when the party is around 10th to 12th level can get deadly pretty quick, especially in the Forgotten Realms setting where 20th+ level characters are relatively common. |
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Well, the deity in question is not all that powerful--certainly not in the Realms, where the deities are too busy trying to keep him at least somewhat contained (so that the PCs can get him back in his prison) to fight with each other. Much. Besides, I'm not overly worried about the players' levels, since this is going to take several RT months to complete. There are many parts of the puzzle that must be completed before the whole picture comes into view, and by that time the players will be able to face their final conflict.
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| As far as the ex-Paladin's quest, I would seriously consider only allowing him to regain his status as a result of this quest. |
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I think I said that in my earlier post--if I didn't, my bad. He either succeeds or he dies. Of course, he can succeed and still die sacrificing his life to save his comrades--in which case his character will not only be redeemed, but will be raised by Tyr and ascend to demipower as a servant of Tyr (becoming an NPC) and the player will have to roll up a new character that will be something he can actually get away with playing.
Quote:
| Receiving the Holy Avnger and the Bonded Mount should be separate quests, if for no other reason than to convey just how special these things are. |
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I had considered that--but there will be side quests leading to the final conflict that will lead to his eventual gaining of the sword and horse.
Quote:
| Again, I think this quest is a bit much for characters of this level, especially since it is a redemption quest for an ex-paladin. Very seldom do other PCs (especially in a group of this size) appreciate being dragged into quest after quest that the paladin is on, if for no other reason than the fact that it tends to relegate them to a support role instead of as co-equal stars in the adventure. |
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This party is different--they want to see the Paladin redeemed too. So in that regard I'm fortunate--if it was any other group I'd have a smaller quest and then two separate quests later on to get the sword and horse.
Quote:
| Two months of real world gaming time focused on one character can be a bit much; you'll have to make sure the others get a good share of the spotlight afterwards. |
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Well, the Spellfire channeler has had a good deal of attention already, as has the rogue. The priests are more or less "along for the ride". BTW, spellfire channelers are munchy as hell--if one of your players wants to take the prestige class, be sure to make life a pain in the arse for him from that time forward.
Quote:
| Whcih brings the next concern: what are you going to do afterwards to challenge this party. |
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I'll napalm that bridge as I cross it.
Quote:
| I've tried involoving parties in epic world-saving quests before and it works only so far: they either get tired of it, or after the crisis is over it is harder to come up with a challenge worthy of them. |
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Depends on the party, I think. This party is really keen on roleplaying (except for the Paladin, who I think might wind up leaving the group shortly after this whole thing is done anyway because he gets bored with anything other than "hack, slash, and hack some more"). So they like a good story more than they like having lots of baddies tossed at them.
As for splitting them, I've tried that--it's pretty impossible for me to do it, though I could easily go after the Paladin and try making him a Blackguard of Tharizdun (which he'd probably go for).
Wouldn't that just be a kick in the pants.
--Camille.
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What part of "LEAVE ME ALONE" is so hard to understand?
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 907
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 00:32 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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Hey, if the ex-paladin becomes a Blackguard, that would certainly be a roleplaying opportunity for the group. The others get to decide if they want to try to redeem him, and if so, how, while the player gets to have a stint a unregulated hacking and slashing before he is either redeemed or put out of his misery.
Sounds like fun. Wish I could be a part of a regular ongoing campaign, especially from the player standpoint (I usually end up DMing when my group does actually get time to play). Good luck.
Ronin
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Apr-2002 00:54 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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Quote:
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On 2002-04-15 00:32, Ronin wrote:
Hey, if the ex-paladin becomes a Blackguard, that would certainly be a roleplaying opportunity for the group. The others get to decide if they want to try to redeem him, and if so, how, while the player gets to have a stint a unregulated hacking and slashing before he is either redeemed or put out of his misery.
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That is a excellent suggestion. I like it, I like it alot. I may mention it to my GM.
Two thumbs up Ronin. great idea
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Apr-2002 14:20 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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I think you should have his return to Paladinhood hinge on this: He should learn of and/or aquire the special mount, and the Holy Avenger, and then have to ultimately sacrifice them to fufill the quest. This would help teach him that deeds and sacrifice make him a Paladin, not material things.
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 907
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Apr-2002 15:34 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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Oh, the whole "redeem the bad guy" idea I ripped straight from Star Wars (can you say Anakin), which was ripped from many other stories. It is a classic idea. And a good one, if not overdone.
Not being snippy, I just didn't want to be credited for a good idea that I stole from someon who stole it from someone who stole it who stole it from someone....
I think it was said in a Dungeoncraft article once that a good DM is also a shameless thief of story ideas.
Ronin
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Apr-2002 22:52 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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the Big "I" has nearly defeated some seriously powerful paladins. So the reward is a match with the challenge. I have been out of D&D for a while, but it looks doable, idf they play it smart. There are a lot of nasties that are under control of Big I, and if they brute force it, they will get worn out. Powerful evil minons are around too, some PC class entities should be hanging about, some Anti-Paladins, evil Preiests and even a few assasin types dogging the backtrail would be good. The assasins could be used as a goad, if the players get bogged down. Heck if the Paladin doesn't do things right, the assassins could still get him after the threat is stopped.
We would be talking a trip into Mordor here and an epic like The Fellowship of the Ring. With all the events and chaos that would be caused.
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Apr-2002 00:33 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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I think it was said in a Dungeoncraft article once that a good DM is also a shameless thief of story ideas.
Ronin
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that is so true. But the story laid out. Is one the players rarely follow.
As Rarich is about to find out. I like the story idea. But the players are going to screw with it. They always do.
"Can't you people stick to the script!?!" ICER yells to his gaming gruop
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Apr-2002 11:06 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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ICER, You know that players can't read.....
Sir HEnry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8050
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Apr-2002 11:31 Post subject: Need some input from the experienced DMs out there. |
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I just find it easier to give the characters the thing they're looking for before they know they're looking for it, and then watch them spend a year of real time role-playing to realize that they have it. 
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