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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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 Posted: 24-Jun-2004 11:37 Post subject: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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To me it comes down to math and the math says that pulse lasers are not nearly as good as everyone thinks. And yes I am specifically referring to IS pulse lasers. Clan tech is balanced in and of itself and you cannot compare it to IS tech. So from here on out we are talking specifically IS tech.
Small lasers
Small pulse laser.
1 ton
1 crit
2 heat
3 damage
1/2/3 range.
Small laser.
.5 tons
1 crit
1 heat
3 damage
1/2/3.
So you get twice as many shots for 1 more crit. With an average Target of 7 (58% chance to hit). With the pulse laser you get one shot at target 5 (82% chance to hit) or with the two small lasers you get two shots at 58% (guaranteed for one to hit). The pulse laser can do at most 3 damage whereas the small laser can do at most 6 damage and is statistically guaranteed to do 3. Only when the Target is 10 or greater does the pulse actually begin to suprpass the small lasers.
ER small laser.
.5 tons
1 crit
2 heat
3 damage
2/4/5
We only get to fire 1 ER small for every small pulse, however keep in my the ER is still half the weight. Regardless at range 1 the pulse is somewhat superior. It has a -2 to hit but that comes at double the weight. At range 2 the ER and the pulse have equal modifiers and generate equal heat. The ER is superior here because it is half the weight. At range 3 the pulse is at +2 and so is the ER, so again they have equal modifiers but again the ER is superior because it is half the weight. Finally at range 4 and 5 the ER is totally superior because the pulse simply cannot hit.
Medium lasers
Medium pulse laser
2 tons
1 crit
4 heat
6 damage
2/4/6 range
Medium laser
1 ton
1 crit
3 heat
5 damage
3/6/9 range
At range 1-2 the pulse wins. It does more damage and has a -2 to hit. This is somewhat offset by the extra tonnage however. The standard medium holds it's own pretty well though ... meaning you can have two of them for the same tonnage, one extra crit, and at target 7 do 5.83 damage for 6 heat whereas at the same target the pulse will do 5 damage for 4 heat. Nope the pulse is the winner here.
At range 3 the modifiers even up and you now have a medium laser being in every way better than the pulse. More damage/heat and half the weight.
At range 4 the pulse is better as it has the -2 to hit and the numbers line up identical to the 1-2 range.
At range 5-6 the medium is again superior, because the modifiers again even up and the medium does more damage/heat and is half the weight.
At range 7-9 obviously the medium is superior, as it can hit.
ER Medium laser
1 ton
1 crit
3 heat
5 damage
4/8/12 range
While Two ER mediums are weight-efficient they are by no means heat efficient so the pulse clearly wins over the ER at range 1-2. With an everage target of 7 the pulse will do 5 damage for 4 heat whereas two ER mediums will do 5.83 damage for 10 heat ... nope no comparison. The standard medium may be in the same ballpark in this range ... but the ER just gets slaughtered.
At range 3-4 the modifiers even up. The pulse does more damage/heat but it also weighs twice as much. I would have to give the ER the slight advantage at this range as even though it does make more heat it is half the weight.
At range 5-6 the modifiers again even up so you get the same occurance as 3-4 ... the ER slightly edging out the pulse since it is half the weight but with a worse damage/heat ratio.
And at range 7-12 ... the ER takes the cake.
Large Lasers
Large Pulse Laser
7 tons
2 crits
10 heat
9 damage
3/7/10 range
Large Laser
5 tons
2 crits
8 heat
8 damage
5/10/15 range
At range 1-3 the pulse laser is again, superior ... although not by a whole lot. It costs 40% more tonnage and is 10% less heat efficient but has a -2 to hit. Still it cannot be denied it is the superior weapon.
At range 4-5 the modifiers even out and the Large laser is the clear winner. Better damage/heat and less tons.
At range 6-7 the pulse laser switches off again and has a -2 to hit advantage over the large laser. So the situation is the same as at range 1-3 with the pulse being slightly superior.
At range 8-10 the modifiers even out and the Large laser is again the clear winner.
At range 11-15 the large laser wins by default, the pulse laser puts up no fight.
ER Large Laser
5 tons
2 crits
12 heat
8 damage
7/14/19
At range 1-3 the pulse laser is completely and totally superior. No contest
At range 4-10 the modifiers are completely even. The pulse laser is more heat efficient but the ER is 2 tons lighter. Its a tough call really since the ER large is so damned heat inefficient. I would call it a draw myself.
At range 11-19, obviously the ER wins.
So now tell me, why do people insist that these Pulse lasers are so over-powerful? Do people just not understand math? Other than short range the standard and ER lasers consistently out-shine the pulse lasers ... and considering short range for a pulse laser is at most 3 hexes ... that's not a whole lot of use you are going to get out of it. I understand that on mechs like spiders or whatnot and on mechs like brawlers you will in fact get that close ... an intelligent opponent can easily idenitify your pulse mech from a mile away and stay out of your effective range pretty easily.
Why is a laser so overrated when it is only superior to the other lasers for such a tiny range??
[ This Message was edited by: Feral on 2004-06-24 11:40 ]
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 11:59 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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The thing you have to look at is they have NO long range because of the modifier (-2), and the higher damage potential.
I will point out i always thought the pulse lasers caused less heat than ER lasers. So better damage, modifiers and heat ability than the ER laser. Overall i prefer the ER's myself. More snipin, which is me all over. 
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 12:16 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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Simple because we take into account the Clan vs IS factor which try as you will to say does not count DOES. this is a game and as a game all componites need to be balanced to each other. otherwise, you get an imbalance and this destroys the game. it is this fact , along with suposidely poor story which personely i don't see, that causes many players to stay in 3025 or ignore the clans all together. in addition, do not try to give me that bull about the clans being supieror and there weapons balanced to each other. as BT is a game that line is just that, it is bull. if i designed another faction with tachyon cannons that weighted 7tons with a range of 54 hexes and did 30 damage with a -4 to-hit and then designed a second weapon called a masion gun weighing 1ton with a range of 18 hexes and did 15 damage with a -4 to-hit, you would call me a munchkin and critize my weapons as being unbalanced even thou there clearly BALANCED to each other.
you cannot consider just one aspect of a game when considering GAME balance. as such, you must include a clan vs is comparision in your evaluation of pulse lasers.
you will find that the clan pulse laser is over powered at 2x the IS pulse laser range and isn't even 2/3rd the range of clan lasers.
all in all they add up to be too power full.
What they should be:
Clan SPL
heat: 2
dmg: 3
range: 1/2/3
Clan MPL
heat: 4
dmg: 7
range: 1-2/3-5/6-8
Clan LPL
heat: 10
dmg: 10
range: 1-4/5-8/9-12
Clan MiPL
heat: 1
dmg: 1
range: 1/2/3
Those are the more balanced stats.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
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Posts: 6085
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 13:16 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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I've never thought Pulse Lasers only were too powerful. I've always viewed them as too powerful when used with targeting Computers. Because when you aim you get +3 instead of -1, that equals out to just a +1 to hit a location. For regular lasers it's still +3. And the +3 is what makes a big difference between needing 8s and needing 10s.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 13:25 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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And if the Clan pulse lasers shared the same range as the IS they would actually be fine. But when you have a Timberwolf with 3 LG pulse and a TC with the ability to get a -3 at range 20 everytime it fires that is where the imbalance come in. In all honesty I dont think anyone uses the IS pulse as they are garbage. But the Clan Pluse lasers (which really do need to be taken into account) are way out of balance with the rest of the game. Personally I dont like any of the pulse lasers and think they should all be removed from the game. Especially the clan Pulse lasers as they are the ones that are unbalanced.
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 908
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 14:22 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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Maybe this goes in the "overhaul Btech?" thread, but the pulse laser problem, particularly when combined with a TC, wouldn't be so much of a problem if gunnery and piloting skill rolls were made with one die instead of 2d6.
The one die could be a d10, d12, or even a d20. The main point would be that the modifiers for the skill rolls, both positive and negative, would have an equal value regardless of other considerations, such as range, terrain, and pilot skill. For example, on a d10, a -1 to hit bonus translates as a 10% chance, no matter what the base target number is. Currently, the objective is to get your to-hit roll below 7 if possible, so that statistics will weigh in your favor. But with the 2d6 system, the -1 to-hit bonus has different value at different times... going from a to-hit of 8 to 7 has better benefit than going from 12 to 11 (I think, I'm too lazy to look up the exact math right now).
The type of die used would determine the value of to-hit bonuses and penalties, not to mention piloting skill bonuses and penalties. Maybe it would be flirting too much with the d20 system, but using a d20 for these rolls would mean that each point of bonus or penalty is worth 5%, which would mean that at it's worst the TC/Pulse combo is good only for 15% better chance at hitting, which could be offset by using the expanded movement modifiers table perhaps (since a d20 provides a wider scale of possible results).
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 15:43 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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Nobody uses the IS pulse lasers? Where did you get that idea? Almost every 3055+ mech I design uses the pulse laser rather than the standard one. Especially the ones that jump. When looking through the custom mech section there are quite a few from that era that use them.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 20:38 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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I agree that IS pulse lasers are very over-rated. Even with a TC they are not very good weapon systems except at point blank ranges.
However, your analysis is flawed.
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So you get twice as many shots for 1 more crit. With an average Target of 7 (58% chance to hit). With the pulse laser you get one shot at target 5 (82% chance to hit) or with the two small lasers you get two shots at 58% (guaranteed for one to hit).
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Your statistics here are completely wrong. You cannot add the probabilities of the two small lasers as they are two independent events. Someone firing two small lasers is not guaranteed a hit. The correct probability is 82.36% for hitting with a small laser in this scenario.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-06-24 20:38 ]
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 23:10 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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Your statistics here are completely wrong. You cannot add the probabilities of the two small lasers as they are two independent events. Someone firing two small lasers is not guaranteed a hit. The correct probability is 82.36% for hitting with a small laser in this scenario.
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Correct ... 82% chance for one hit and like 33% chance of hitting with both. My bad, sorry.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 23:14 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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On 2004-06-24 12:16, Vagabond wrote:
Simple because we take into account the Clan vs IS factor which try as you will to say does not count DOES. this is a game and as a game all componites need to be balanced to each other. otherwise, you get an imbalance and this destroys the game. it is this fact , along with suposidely poor story which personely i don't see, that causes many players to stay in 3025 or ignore the clans all together. in addition, do not try to give me that bull about the clans being supieror and there weapons balanced to each other. as BT is a game that line is just that, it is bull. if i designed another faction with tachyon cannons that weighted 7tons with a range of 54 hexes and did 30 damage with a -4 to-hit and then designed a second weapon called a masion gun weighing 1ton with a range of 18 hexes and did 15 damage with a -4 to-hit, you would call me a munchkin and critize my weapons as being unbalanced even thou there clearly BALANCED to each other.
you cannot consider just one aspect of a game when considering GAME balance. as such, you must include a clan vs is comparision in your evaluation of pulse lasers.
you will find that the clan pulse laser is over powered at 2x the IS pulse laser range and isn't even 2/3rd the range of clan lasers.
all in all they add up to be too power full.
What they should be:
Clan SPL
heat: 2
dmg: 3
range: 1/2/3
Clan MPL
heat: 4
dmg: 7
range: 1-2/3-5/6-8
Clan LPL
heat: 10
dmg: 10
range: 1-4/5-8/9-12
Clan MiPL
heat: 1
dmg: 1
range: 1/2/3
Those are the more balanced stats.
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I can and will make any comparison I want. Math is math. Your complaint is against the clans then fine ... bitch about the clans in some other thread. My post is a mathematical analysis of Inner sphere technology because I see a great many Inner Sphere players infatuated with them when as far as inner sphere tech goes they are really not that great.
Clan pulse lasers are not that great when compared to other clan technology either ... although since the clans do lack basic lasers (all they have is ER and pulse) they are a mainstay.
Clan technology is a whole seperate paradigm and any attempt to compare it to inner sphere technology is an insipid attempt to whine and bitch about the obvious ... it IS better ... period. End of story end of arguement.
[ This Message was edited by: Feral on 2004-06-24 23:29 ]
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2004 23:24 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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Quote:
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On 2004-06-24 13:16, Mordel wrote:
I've never thought Pulse Lasers only were too powerful. I've always viewed them as too powerful when used with targeting Computers. Because when you aim you get +3 instead of -1, that equals out to just a +1 to hit a location. For regular lasers it's still +3. And the +3 is what makes a big difference between needing 8s and needing 10s.
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But when you start talking targetting computers the basic lasers get better even faster than the pulses. Aside from the location targetting deal (which pulse lasers DO rock at) ... you get twice as many regular lasers per ton and crit of targetting computer. Which is better ... 4 medium lasers in a TC (with a -1) or two medium pulse lasers (with a -3)? Even at range 1-2 with standard target numbers (7) the pulse are rolling 4s for a maximum damage of 12 and the lasers are rolling 6's with a maximum damage of 20. The pulses will both hit 84% of the time ... pretty good ... but you also have a 27% chance of all 4 mediums hitting and I think a little more than a 50% chance of 3 of those mediums hitting with 2 being virtually guaranteed. Tough call as to which is better at even the pulse laser's preferred range. Put both sets of lasers at range 3, 5 or 6 (or 7-9 ) and you will find the mediums are hands-down better in every way.
Basically other than the specific ranges I listed above (1-2, and 4 when comparing to regular mediums ... or only 1-2 when comparing to ER's) ... even with TC's the pulses still have nothing going for them. Sure they can get a -2 to that target location hit ... but they are still looking at range penalties which will balance it out. At range 3 a medium pulse and a regular medium laser have the same chance to hit a location but the medium laser is more heat efficient and weighs half as much and takes up half as much space on the targetting computer ...
Overrated.
Which leads me to my next point ... the basic lasers are severely underrated. This was something I was subtly attempting to illustrate above. Except for in exceptional circumstances I will take the basic lasers over either of their variants 75% of the time. When it comes to large lasers there is no comparison as the ER large is an atrocity as is the large pulse (for 7 tons I will take a PPC thank you). While the good 'ol IS large laser rocks as far as I'm concerned. So many people go PPC over it when in fact it is at least as good as a PPC as far as I'm concerned. Better than a PPC on mechs designed to close, worse on mechs designed to snipe.
[ This Message was edited by: Feral on 2004-06-24 23:39 ]
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5788
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Jun-2004 00:48 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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I can and will make any comparison I want. Math is math. Your complaint is against the clans then fine ... bitch about the clans in some other thread. My post is a mathematical analysis of Inner sphere technology because I see a great many Inner Sphere players infatuated with them when as far as inner sphere tech goes they are really not that great.
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You are free to make any comparision you wish as that is your right. however, the comparision you are making is a weighted one. you are choosing to ignore one aspect of a system in order to argue another in your favor. that is a bad policy.
as for mathematical evaluation, i recall that when i gave a comparision of an IS PPC and a Clan LPL you waved it aside using the very same aspect you are using here.
i myself like the clans. they interest me, and i have almost no problem with there technology. in addition, i like the story line that brought them into BT. moan about the clans i need not. i moan about a weapon that exists in a game that has/is proven to be unbalancing. as i stated before, to consider only those aspects of a system that needs to maintain balance while ignoring a enter part of it is not only bad policy but also bad debating. you are purposely weighing a situation to your side by purposely ommiting certain aspect of the subject that do factor into a situation. that situation is that in many player's opinion, clan pulse lasers are imbalancing to the BT game system.
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Clan pulse lasers are not that great when compared to other clan technology either ... although since the clans do lack basic lasers (all they have is ER and pulse) they are a mainstay.
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This is not entirely true.
Heat: MPL 4 vs ERML 5. win goes to MPL.
Damage: MPL 7 vs ERML 7. Tie.
Weight: MPL 2 vs ERML 1. win goes to ERML.
Range:
hexes 1-4: MPL -2 vs ERML's +0. Win MPL.
hexes 5: MPL +0 vs ERML +0. Tie.
hexes 6-8: MPL +0 vs ERML +2. Win MPL.
hexes 9-10: MPL +2 vs ERML +2. Tie.
hexes 11-12: MPL +2 vs ERML +4. Win MPL.
hexes 13-15: MPL +na vs ERML +4. Win ERML.
theres the math. MPL wins 4, ties 3, and looses 2. gimmie a MPL. now when compared to even a IS ERML the Clan MPL wins out.
As i said to consider only on side is bad debate.
Clan LPL vs IS PPC:
Heat: LPL 10 vs IS PPC 10. Tie.
Damage: LPL 10 vs IS PPC 10. Tie.
Weight: LPL 6 vs IS PPC 7. Win LPL.
Range:
hexes 1: LPL -2 vs IS PPC +3. Win LPL.
hexes 2: LPL -2 vs IS PPC +2. Win LPL.
hexes 3: LPL -2 vs IS PPC +1. Win LPL.
hexes 4-6: LPL -2 vs IS PPC +0. Win LPL.
hexes 7-12: LPL +0 vs IS PPC +2. Win LPL.
hexes 13-14: LPL +0 vs IS PPC +4. Win LPL.
hexes 15-18: LPL +2 vs IS PPC +4. Win LPL.
hexes 19-20: LPL +2 vs IS PPC +na. Win LPL.
theres the math. LPL wins 9, ties 2, and looses 0. Balanced? i think not.
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Clan technology is a whole seperate paradigm and any attempt to compare it to inner sphere technology is an insipid attempt to whine and bitch about the obvious ... it IS better ... period. End of story end of arguement.
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Again i will use my example of a new third side. they use super advanced technologies and some how Fanpro allowed them to be put into the BT universe.
They use a Neutron Cannon which for all intents is a IS LL with triple range, triple damage, and weights 5 tons.
They also have a Mason Cannon which for all intents is a IS ML with triple range, triple damage, and only weights 1 ton.
Obviously as these are based off of existing lvl1 tech super sized they are BALANCED to each other. so lets no consider them when discussing game balance as they are balanced with in its own side.
if i was to say that as part of the game developer, i would be laughed at, critized, and called a moron. which again illistrates my previous point, to consider only on side is bad policy.
i am not alone in saying that yes, i moan about the obvious, which is Clan Pulse Lasers are unbalanced and need there ranges drasticly dropped.
so in conclusion, i will restat that which i started with. you may as is your right choose to what comparisions you wish to make, yet by choosing to exclude one part of a game in order to secure your argument you are giving yourself no leg to stand on. the evidence is evidence, and the math is math. turn a blind eye to it as you will, but they are what they are and will remain thus. clan pulse laser are unbalanced item within the battletech gaming system.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Jun-2004 02:27 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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Over on HMP we have a number of Mathamagicians and recently one of them (I think it was Cray but I am not sure) ran a spread sheet on the damage percentages of the various lasers (Standard ,ER ,heavy,Pulse,) plus the MGs using tonnage and range (Heat was not factored in this) and especially in the smaller sizes pulses did not show an advantage Even the clan pulses mainly because of the weight differential IS pulses are really bad. And heavies faired poorly as well because of the short range and inaccuracy.
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Feral
ComStar
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Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 25-Jun-2004 07:31 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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On 2004-06-25 00:48, Vagabond wrote:
so in conclusion, i will restat that which i started with. you may as is your right choose to what comparisions you wish to make, yet by choosing to exclude one part of a game in order to secure your argument you are giving yourself no leg to stand on. the evidence is evidence, and the math is math. turn a blind eye to it as you will, but they are what they are and will remain thus. clan pulse laser are unbalanced item within the battletech gaming system.
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I think you misjudge my purpose then. You have assumed my goal is to defend pulse lasers' viability ... this is not the case at all. My purpose is to prove to people how much IS pulse lasers suck donkey-nuts. Nothing more, nothing less. I can exclude clan technology all together simply because when creating an inner sphere mech clan technology isn't a consideration ... yet I have seen endless numbers of inner sphere mechs created that have hordes of pulse lasers on them ... or worse ... ER large lasers ... and I just shake my head.
So tell me, given my purpose is to educate would-be Inner sphere mech creators/modifiers ... why must I even give a damn about clan technology? That's a seperate (yet valid) battle ... but it has nothing to do with my arguement. It is erraneous data that does not apply unless for some reason I was building a level 3 mech with crossover tech ... but at that point it is clear you should use clan lasers not the dinky IS ones.
I am not trying to repair a system here ... I am educating people that may not have the skills (math) to do it themselves.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 25-Jun-2004 11:31 Post subject: RE: Why oh why are pulse lasers so overrated? |
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You're really missing the point here. Inner Sphere Pulse Lasers were never the problem; clan ones were. Look at the comparison between the clan LPL and the clan ER PPC. The LPL is hands down the better choice, because of the targeting mods. In the inner sphere, a 'mech with an ER PPC can snipe at ranges the Pulse Laser can't return fire at.
Now, until Max Cheese made the colossal mistake of introducing the already broken Targeting Computer concept to the Inner Sphere, the max-munch combo of Pulse Laser + T.Comp was limited to the clans. Now, it's come to the inner sphere, which is totally unacceptable.
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