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Rarich
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PostPosted: 19-Feb-2004 18:23    Post subject: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

I designed this on the spur of the moment.

AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout

Class/Model/Name: gunboat lightning class
Tech: Clan / 3067
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Custom design

Mass: 200,000 tons
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide

Armament:
80 ER Medium Laser
95 Gauss Rifle
1 Heavy NPPC
7 NL55
25 ER Large Laser


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: gunboat lightning class
Mass: 200,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant: Standard 48,000.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 6) 90,500.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 3) 40.00
Structural Integrity: 92 38,400.00
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks: 660 Double 306.00
Towing Adapter: 100,000.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 1,400.00
Bridge & Controls: 500.00
Fire Control Computers: 1,202.00
Food & Water: (122 days supply) 210.75
Armor Factor: 532 Lamellor Ferro-carbide 367.50

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Armor Value
(Capital Scale)
Fore: 101
Fore Left / Right: 88 / 88
Aft Left / Right: 88 / 88
Aft: 79

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equipment & Options:
DropShip Capacity: 4 Docking Hardpoints 4,000
Grav Decks:
Grav Deck #1: (150-meter diameter) 100
Life Boats: 5 (7 tons each) 35
Escape Pods: 12 (7 tons each) 84
Crew and Passengers:
45 Officers (41 minimum) 0.00
160 Crew (40 minimum) 0.00
45 Gunners (42 minimum) 0.00
5 1st Class Passengers 0.00
5 2nd Class Passengers 0.00
56 Marines 0.00
30 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals 0.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weapons & Equipment: Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
10 ER Medium Laser Nose 7(70) 7(70) -- -- 50 10.00
10 Gauss Rifle(200 rounds) Nose 15(150) 15(150) 15(150) -- 10 145.00
1 Heavy NPPC Nose 15 15 15 15 225 3,000.00
1 NL55 FL/R 6 6 6 6 170 2,200.00
10 ER Medium Laser FL/R 12(120) 12(120) 5(50) 5(50) 100 20.00
5 ER Large Laser 120 40.00
15 Gauss Rifle(256 rounds) FL/R 23(225) 23(225) 23(225) -- 30 424.00
10 ER Medium Laser L/RBS 7(70) 7(70) -- -- 100 20.00
10 Gauss Rifle(200 rounds) L/RBS 15(150) 15(150) 15(150) -- 20 290.00
1 NL55 L/RBS 6 6 6 6 170 2,200.00
1 NL55 AL/R 6 6 6 6 170 2,200.00
10 ER Medium Laser AL/R 12(120) 12(120) 5(50) 5(50) 100 20.00
5 ER Large Laser 120 40.00
10 Gauss Rifle(160 rounds) AL/R 15(150) 15(150) 15(150) -- 20 280.00
1 NL55 Aft 6 6 6 6 85 1,100.00
10 ER Medium Laser Aft 12(120) 12(120) 5(50) 5(50) 50 10.00
5 ER Large Laser 60 20.00
15 Gauss Rifle(216 rounds) Aft 23(225) 23(225) 23(225) -- 15 207.00
TOTALS: 1,615 199,959.25
Tons Left: 40.75

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 4,944,033,200 C-Bills
Battle Value: 57,696
Cost per BV: 85,691.09
Weapon Value: 50,301 (Ratio = .87)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 2,075; MRDmg = 1,720; LRDmg = 698; ERDmg = 127
Maintenance Point Value: MPV = 551,638 (233,568 Structure, 266,350 Life Support, 51,720 Weapons)
Support Points: SP = 556,875 (101% of MPV)
BattleForce2: (Not applicable)




Why does it outgun everything but a 500,000 ton ship BV wise, and costs 1/3 less than the nearest weight vessel?! Have I done something wrong?

I average about 40 points of capitol damage at medium range in almost all arcs. The Impavidio has half the armor, with about the same firepower and weighs twice as much! I could almost take it out in 1 pass!


[ This Message was edited by: Rarich on 2004-02-19 18:37 ]
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ralgith
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PostPosted: 19-Feb-2004 20:01    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

No idea, I have no AeroTech design rules or computer progs.

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PostPosted: 19-Feb-2004 20:46    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

I was wondering because the figure for damage seem REAL high compared to Canon designs I have seen.

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PostPosted: 19-Feb-2004 21:54    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

Well I just d/l a couple of aerospace design progs and i'm gonna try to make this baby if either supports warships. When I can afford it I'm gonna get all the Heavy Metal Progs.

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PostPosted: 19-Feb-2004 22:34    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

Ok, only one of the progs I have can make Warships and it isnt very good. Also it has a vast difference in cost, as well as a glitch for all side arcs (FL/R, BSL/R, and AL/R) in that it only uses the tonnage of 1 weapon instead of the 2 since sure its 1 weapon, but 1 weapon on each side. It also glitches the cost as mine costs way more than just over 4billion c-bills. I'll check it out once I have the Heavy Metal progs.

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PostPosted: 20-Feb-2004 05:04    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cost is mostly a result of the number of docking collars a WarShip carries. The other major factor is a Lithium-Fusion battery. (But an HPG will add an even 2 billion to the cost of a WarShip.) Essentially, a Fox costs more than a Krishima although it is only 1/3 the size and has far less armor and firepower. Those 5 docking collars make the Fox nearly as expensive as a McKenna. In other words, the cost system in AT2 is totally screwed over. You can produce a heavily armored and gunned 2.5 million ton battleship with no docking collars and no LF battery for around 2.5 bilion. (BTW, the costs were revised downwards drastically between BattleSpace and AT2 - older spreadsheets naturally have the older BS costs.)

BV is also a poor predictor for AT2. It depends too heavily on heat efficiency. Most canon WarShips have insufficient heat sinks cutting the BV drastically.

Finally, you have put almost all conventional (i.e. BT-scale) weapons on your vessel. They are vastly more heat and weight efficient than capital scale weapons. They also only have have half the range. Any comparable vessel could blow yours out of space before most of your weapons come into range provided it is equipped with heavier naval weaponry.



As a comparison, here is my \"standard\" corvette. It\'s a bit bigger than yours, but not overly so.

AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name: Piranha (corvette)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2

Mass: 240.000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 25 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:
16 ER Large Laser
24 LRM 20+ArtIV
24 Gauss Rifle
40 ER PPC
40 Large Pulse Laser
15 Screen Launcher
8 NAC/30
8 Small Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Piranha was rapidly put into production after the end of the Civil War to
bolster the FS WarShip fleet. At the end of the war, most of the WarShips in
the FS had either been destroyed or were undergoing extensive repairs. The
Piranha is an assault modification to the Fox Class corvette. The design had
been around for several years undergoing refinement at NAIS which enabled the
AFFC to quickly begin work. The decision to put it into production was made
simply because no other WarShip could be produced as rapidly or as cheaply as
the Piranha.
The ship itself is a marvel of combat power. Although it is only slightly
larger than the Fox, it has almost as much firepower as most destroyers and
the armor to match. Furthermore, because it only carries 12 fighters and
cannot carry any DropShips, it was given powerful anti-fighter weapons. The
Lithium-Fusion battery enables the vessel to rapidly move throughout the vast
reaches of the Federated Suns. An experimental HPG has also reportedly been
installed. Our order has known for some time of the secret research of NAIS in
HPG technology. This intensive research finally appears to have borne fruit.
To date only 2 have been deployed, the Lexington and the Saratoga. However
with both the Kathil and Galax yards producing ships at a rate of 2 per year,
the planned class of twelve ships will completed within only 3 years.
Critics contend that the Piranha will not fit properly into the task forces
the AFFC currently deploys. In fact, it is believed that the design represents
a major change in the way the AFFC views the role of WarShips. Previously
WarShips were intended solely to support the AFFC on the ground. However, as a
result of the experience gained in the Civil War and the retirement of Fleet
Admiral Buchwald, the role of WarShips has now been recast. In the future they
will be employed primarily to interdict incoming enemy fleets before they can
land on a planet or to escort attacking AFFC fleets. In either role the
WarShips will be used mostly to combat enemy WarShips and DropShips.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Piranha (corvette)
Mass: 240.000 tons

Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 57.600,00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 6) 108.600,00
Lithium Fusion Battery 2.400,00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 3) 42,00
Structural Integrity: 100 24.000,00
Total Heat Sinks: 1.159 Double 775,00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 4.080,00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 600,00
Fire Control Computers: ,00
Food & Water: (182 days supply) 180,00
Hyperpulse Generator: 50,00
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (636 total armor pts) 480,00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 110
Fore-Left/Right: 108/108
Aft-Left/Right: 104/104
Aft: 102

Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (6) with 3 doors 900,00
Small Craft (1) 200,00
Bay 2: Fighters (6) with 3 doors 900,00
Small Craft (1) 200,00
Bay 3: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 3.191,00

Grav Deck #1: (195-meter diameter) 100,00
Life Boats: 12 (7 tons each) 84,00
Escape Pods: 22 (7 tons each) 154,00

Crew and Passengers:
28 Officers (25 minimum) 280,00
70 Crew (65 minimum) 490,00
50 Gunners (49 minimum) 350,00
16 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals 112,00
34 Bay Personnel ,00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 ER Large Laser Nose 2(16) 2(16) 2(16) -- 24 10,00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(96 rounds) Nose 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 18 49,00
3 Gauss Rifle(96 rounds) Nose 5(45) 5(45) 5(45) -- 3 57,00
5 ER PPC Nose 5(50) 5(50) 5(50) -- 75 35,00
5 Large Pulse Laser Nose 5(45) 5(45) -- -- 50 35,00
1 Screen Launcher(10 scrns)Nose -- -- -- -- 10 140,00
1 NAC/30(50 rounds) Nose 30 30 30 -- 100 3.540,00
1 Small Laser Nose 0(3) -- -- -- 1 ,50
2 ER Large Laser FL/R 2(16) 2(16) 2(16) -- 48 20,00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(96 rounds) FL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 36 98,00
3 Gauss Rifle(96 rounds) FL/R 5(45) 5(45) 5(45) -- 6 114,00
5 ER PPC FL/R 5(50) 5(50) 5(50) -- 150 70,00
5 Large Pulse Laser FL/R 5(45) 5(45) -- -- 100 70,00
2 NAC/30(50 rounds) FL/R 60 60 60 -- 400 14.080,00
2 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)FL/R -- -- -- -- 40 560,00
2 ER Large Laser L/RBS 2(16) 2(16) 2(16) -- 48 20,00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(96 rounds) L/RBS 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 36 98,00
3 Gauss Rifle(96 rounds) L/RBS 5(45) 5(45) 5(45) -- 6 114,00
5 ER PPC L/RBS 5(50) 5(50) 5(50) -- 150 70,00
5 Large Pulse Laser L/RBS 5(45) 5(45) -- -- 100 70,00
2 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)L/RBS -- -- -- -- 40 560,00
2 Small Laser L/RBS 1(6) -- -- -- 4 2,00
2 ER Large Laser AL/R 2(16) 2(16) 2(16) -- 48 20,00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(96 rounds) AL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 36 98,00
3 Gauss Rifle(96 rounds) AL/R 5(45) 5(45) 5(45) -- 6 114,00
5 ER PPC AL/R 5(50) 5(50) 5(50) -- 150 70,00
5 Large Pulse Laser AL/R 5(45) 5(45) -- -- 100 70,00
2 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)AL/R -- -- -- -- 40 560,00
1 NAC/30(50 rounds) AL/R 30 30 30 -- 200 7.080,00
1 Small Laser AL/R 0(3) -- -- -- 2 1,00
2 ER Large Laser Aft 2(16) 2(16) 2(16) -- 24 10,00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(96 rounds) Aft 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 18 49,00
3 Gauss Rifle(96 rounds) Aft 5(45) 5(45) 5(45) -- 3 57,00
5 ER PPC Aft 5(50) 5(50) 5(50) -- 75 35,00
5 Large Pulse Laser Aft 5(45) 5(45) -- -- 50 35,00
2 Screen Launcher(20 scrns)Aft -- -- -- -- 20 280,00
1 NAC/30(50 rounds) Aft 30 30 30 -- 100 3.540,00
1 Small Laser Aft 0(3) -- -- -- 1 ,50
1 Lot Spare Parts (1,00%) 2.400,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 2.318 240.000,00
Tons Left: ,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 6.739.088.000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 118.939
Cost per BV: 56.660,04
Weapon Value: 57.850 (Ratio = ,49)
Damage Factors: SRV = 3.748; MRV = 3.449; LRV = 2.087; ERV = 667
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 543.338
(148.732 Structure, 308.760 Life Support, 85.846 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 176.460 (32% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
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Rarich
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PostPosted: 20-Feb-2004 12:49    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

Comment deleted. I just looked at Impavidio, whoa! I get more intense reds, but much closer in. I'll have to do some reworking.

Hey I am still learning this stuff, keep on making points.


[ This Message was edited by: Rarich on 2004-02-20 12:53 ]
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PostPosted: 21-Feb-2004 02:29    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

Keep up the good work. It just takes a while to work out the best ways to do things. However, one way or another, it's not hard to beat canon WarShips and DropShips. The vast majority - especially the ones from TR:2750 - are... let's just say, sub-optimal.

One more factor that can distort the BV of an AT2 vessel is ammo. Ammunition is added to the BV. It makes sense for 'Mechs and even aerospace fighters, but not for anything larger. The only way for BV to mean something is for ammo and heat to be equalized for the vessels being compared. Even then I think it is probably less than ideal, but it does give you a rough yardstick.
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PostPosted: 21-Feb-2004 13:55    Post subject: RE: what's wrong? Reply to topic Reply with quote

O.K. I posted my Flower class corvette here a while back same tonnage a bit slower.

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PostPosted: 21-Feb-2004 22:37    Post subject: New and Improved Reply to topic Reply with quote

         AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  gunboatII lightning class
Tech:              Clan / 3055
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              200,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       4
Maximum Thrust:    6
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:          
    8 NL45
   85 ER Large Laser
    6 NL55
    8 Medium NPPC
    4 NL35
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  gunboatII lightning class
Mass:              200,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass  
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                       48,000.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 4
      Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 6)                 90,500.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 3)                                              40.00
Structural Integrity: 91                                            18,200.00
Total Heat Sinks:    1,650 Double                                    1,296.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   1,478.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:                500.00
Fire Control Computers:                                              1,544.00
Food & Water:  (142 days supply)                                       210.75
Armor Type:  Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (527 total armor pts)             363.50
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                101
   Fore-Left/Right:                   87/87
   Aft-Left/Right:                    87/87
   Aft:                                  78

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Cargo (1)                                                   213.00

DropShip Capacity:  4 Docking Hardpoints                             4,000.00
Grav Deck #1:  (150-meter diameter)                                    100.00
Life Boats:  5 (7 tons each)                                            35.00
Escape Pods:  12 (7 tons each)                                          84.00

Crew and Passengers:
     40 Officers (32 minimum)                                          400.00
    115 Crew (45 minimum)                                              805.00
     45 Gunners (41 minimum)                                           315.00
      5 1st Class Passengers                                            50.00
      5 2nd Class Passengers                                            35.00
     56 Marines                                                        280.00
     30 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        210.00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 NL45                     Nose        18     18     18     18  280  3,600.00
5 ER Large Laser           Nose     5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  5(50)   60     20.00
2 NL45                     FL/R        15     15     15     15  280  3,600.00
  1 NL55                                                        170  2,200.00
15 ER Large Laser          FL/R   15(150)15(150)15(150)15(150)  360    120.00
2 Medium NPPC              FL/R        18     18     18     18  540  7,200.00
5 ER Large Laser           FL/R     5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  120     40.00
1 NL55                     L/RBS        6      6      6      6  170  2,200.00
5 ER Large Laser           L/RBS    5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  120     40.00
2 NL35                     AL/R         7      7      7     --  208  2,800.00
2 Medium NPPC              AL/R        18     18     18     18  540  7,200.00
5 ER Large Laser           AL/R     5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  5(50)  120     40.00
20 ER Large Laser          Aft    20(200)20(200)20(200)20(200)  240     80.00
2 NL55                     Aft         11     11     11     11  170  2,200.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 3,378     199,999.30
Tons Left:                                                                .75

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        4,949,193,192 C-Bills
Battle Value:      59,848
Cost per BV:       82,696.05
Weapon Value:      46,434 (Ratio = .78)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 2,149;  MRV = 1,988;  LRV = 1,332;  ERV = 438
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 447,888
                   (111,866 Structure, 263,850 Life Support, 72,172 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 450,000  (100% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable



Okay, I found a check box that said towing adapter. I unchecked it and got 20,000 tons! I turned that into PPCs and heatsinks.

Extended range values are 48 points of damage in the forward arc. a broadside of 53. I chose not to use Nacs since this would be more of a patrol ship in peace time and a mobile system guard during war (Kick them in the teeth while they are recovering from jumpshock and move on deal). a definate dropship hunter with its movement rate. If I had it carry 4 Achilles A5's I have a pretty powerful little flotilla for checking systems. Change to Battleaxes carried along......

Critique?


[ This Message was edited by: Rarich on 2004-02-23 12:51 ]
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PostPosted: 21-Feb-2004 22:48    Post subject: RE: New and Improved Reply to topic Reply with quote

Hmm, nice. However, now, imho, it has too much long range punch and not enough point defense. But of course if you carry assauolt dropships and fighters, they can provide that. Personally I'd still rather have more PD weapons on the ship itself. All those ERLLs are good PD weapons, but don't you think that having just energy weapons is kinda limiting in that regard? Maybe it's just me.

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PostPosted: 22-Feb-2004 03:37    Post subject: RE: New and Improved Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-02-21 22:48, ralgith wrote:
Hmm, nice. However, now, imho, it has too much long range punch and not enough point defense. But of course if you carry assauolt dropships and fighters, they can provide that. Personally I\'d still rather have more PD weapons on the ship itself. All those ERLLs are good PD weapons, but don\'t you think that having just energy weapons is kinda limiting in that regard? Maybe it\'s just me.

All energy load outs have several advantages one no need to worry about running out of ammo no need to bring ammo from a planetey surface to a warship.Reduced hazard in resupply .Vitualy all of my ships use all energy loadouts.Incidently .
  /pre makes for an easier ti read format


[ This Message was edited by: Motown Scrapper on 2004-02-22 03:38 ]
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PostPosted: 22-Feb-2004 11:16    Post subject: RE: New and Improved Reply to topic Reply with quote

Well, if I am going to use it, the charachter of the unit has a definate bias towards energy weapons since we save having to either manufacture/beg, or Buy/ steal ammo. it would also be an endurance issue how many shots per laser Vs AC, how long does a barrel/Lasing cell last? Energy weapons win that easily. I might include some NACs on a larger ship.

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PostPosted: 22-Feb-2004 14:57    Post subject: RE: New and Improved Reply to topic Reply with quote

A lot of firing on a Laser will melt both the barrel and the focusing lens. So they actually don't last much longer, Unless of course you have very little ammo for the ACs

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Federated Suns
Sergeant-Major
Sergeant-Major


Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 125

PostPosted: 23-Feb-2004 02:24    Post subject: RE: New and Improved Reply to topic Reply with quote

In game terms, the NAC's (except the NAC10) have definite advantages (even if you carry 100+ rounds per gun). If you're talking role play, however, it's whatever you want.

I notice that you haven't included the typical 1% of mass for spare parts. These are the spare parts that keep the ship running. Your cargo is also too low to cover the shortfall (some people just roll food and spare parts over into a general cargo figure). It looks like your ship won't be venturing far from base.

On another note, no fighters and 4 DropShips is unusual - especially for a WarShip of this size.
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