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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 09-Apr-2002 02:27 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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On 2002-04-08 23:52, Ruger wrote:
On the subject of redrawing and resculpting...snip... |
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Okay I agree with you the Longbow as it is now sucks...BUT the idea is that mech got redrawn and a new mini was done. It set the stage for the other UNSEEN to be redone, but as we all know it didn't happen.
Now the idea is that it can be done and done a lot better then the Longbow. Or so I hope that can be done.
One has to wonder WHY the Longbow got redone and not the others, why do one and not the other 14 or so mechs.
And given that the Longbow has been around as an offical mech since the Sorberson's Sabers scenario pack/sourcebook, one would have expected the main stream mechs, (ie Marauder, Warhammer, Battlemaster etc...) to get a face lift and redone.
As for the IIC, some where done okay and others weren't...nothing new there when you look at the mechs in the TRO that they came in...
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 10:08 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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[quote]
On 2002-04-09 02:27, Karagin wrote:
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Now the idea is that it can be done and done a lot better then the Longbow. Or so I hope that can be done.
One has to wonder WHY the Longbow got redone and not the others, why do one and not the other 14 or so mechs.
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Now, don't quote me on this, as I don't know whether this is true or not, but I got the feeling that the Longbow could have this easily done to it as not only did they change the look, but also drastically altered the fluff and the stats for the machine between the original and the 3058 version to explain the differences...also, I got the impression (especially from how rarely you see one offered for auction on eBay and GU...well, relatively rarely) that it was one of the less produced minis, and so would have had far less time to ingrain itself on the minds of the players, unlike the other Unseen...
But like I said, I don't know this for sure...
But if this is the case, it might be a bit more understandable, in light of the above...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-04-09 10:09 ]
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Chunga
Federated Suns
Private, First Class
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 47
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 10:58 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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Okay I agree with you the Longbow as it is now sucks...BUT the idea is that mech got redrawn and a new mini was done. It set the stage for the other UNSEEN to be redone, but as we all know it didn't happen. |
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Ok. We're getting somewhere now. You've stated an opinion I can work with instead of rhetoric.
You admit the new Longbow sucks. You don't like it. You prefer the Robotech style artwork. You've now validated Randall's opinion that people probably won't like new versions of the old mechs.
Let me ask another question. Do you like the artwork of the Arcas? A simple yes or no will do.
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| Now the idea is that it can be done and done a lot better then the Longbow. Or so I hope that can be done. |
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You've been pretty vociferous in the past about the state of the current artwork. What gives you this hope that all of sudden we'll get 25 brand new drawings that will be outstanding? My money is that anything that would be put out today would be slammed and slammed hard.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 13:42 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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[quote]
On 2002-04-09 10:58, Chunga wrote:
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Okay I agree with you the Longbow as it is now sucks...BUT the idea is that mech got redrawn and a new mini was done. It set the stage for the other UNSEEN to be redone, but as we all know it didn't happen. |
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Ok. We're getting somewhere now. You've stated an opinion I can work with instead of rhetoric.
You admit the new Longbow sucks. You don't like it. You prefer the Robotech style artwork. You've now validated Randall's opinion that people probably won't like new versions of the old mechs.
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I don't like how it was done, the drawing and such, BUT I do like that it keep the mech around.
[quote]
Let me ask another question. Do you like the artwork of the Arcas? A simple yes or no will do.
[/qoute]
No I don't like the Arcas, it looks like it missing something, what I don't know but it has the look to me that something else should be on there and it's not there kind of thing...if you understand what I am saying.
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You've been pretty vociferous in the past about the state of the current artwork. What gives you this hope that all of sudden we'll get 25 brand new drawings that will be outstanding? My money is that anything that would be put out today would be slammed and slammed hard.
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The idea is if it the redrawing is done right, and by this I mean close enough to the origianl but still different enough not to many folks will complain and it will help the new folks see and learn about the older mechs, I have noticed they are not making that large of an apperence in the novels and this would be an excellent way for them to have a comeback. But if they are redone along the lines of the redrawn Longbow folks will complain. I have seen some excellent fan done art work for the UNSEEN that are close to the original but different enough that they stand out. Maybe something can be done, maybe not, but using the line that folks will compalin so we won't do it, is not going to end this debate or remove it from discussion.
IF the new pics are slammed fine, folks who care will buy the mechs and be happy, and since the older mechs are still useable then no one is really hurt or forced to use the new. Personally I would by the new miniatures and be happy to have them as I am the origianl ones. Either way to me this a win win situation for all since it would give the new players, ones who came in AFTER the lawsuite the chance to have the original mechs in the game at full blown level and not just mentioned in passing or by some older fan.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8050
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 16:53 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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On 2002-04-08 22:12, Peter_Smith wrote:
Well, if the game is not about the minis themselves, but the 'Mechs, why would it matter what mini they use when they use an Unseen design?
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My answer is probably going to surprise you a little, but I have no idea why it matters. Honestly; I don't know.
But it does. And that's a good enough reason to to redraw them IMO.
Now if I had to guess why they want it to matter is because many of the new players of this game are former and current players of other miniature games like 40K, etc, in which it matters what mini you have, and many are taking that "tradition" into Battletech with them.
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Umm, I'm not sure which thread you're talking about. I did find a thread for a game in Bellevue, Washington in which the gentleman arranging the game would prefer WYSIWYG (why is beyond me), however, he makes no mention about it being a Commando game in either the initial thread or his addendum. If I missed another thread, please shoot me a copy of the link.
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http://www.classicbattletech.com/w3t/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=General&Number=107390&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=
(Hoping that link works  )
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Hardly the case. I assume that, though there is plenty of noise coming from your side of the arguement, your signal is coming through strongly, clearly and calmly.
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Thanks. 
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
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Peter_Smith
Capellan Confederation
Yi-si-ben-bing
Joined: 25-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 122
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 19:19 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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[quote]
On 2002-04-09 02:22, Karagin wrote:
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I see so you are AN EMPLOYEE then if you are not just a volunteer...nice of you finial clear that aup.
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I'm still failing to see why this is such a difficult concept for you to handle Karagin. My employer is Fa Shih Consulting, a small firm in the Chicagoland area that provides network administration staff for local corporations. They are the only people who write me a paycheck. Nobody else.
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It puts you in no special postion. But that falls on deaf ears.
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So says you.
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You do, and have done so it the past.
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You can, of course, provide quotes to that effect.
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which is are you a volunteer who is giving his time to run the board or are you a paid employee?
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Neither.
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WHERE did I say you were doing what you claimed above? |
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Same thread, post from 4 Feb 2002 (server time 23:22). You accuse Chunga and myself of not allowing discussion on the matter. You words were "why can't you let folks talk about it and express their views on it?". The only way for us to prevent any discussion on this board is to be in collusion with the people who run it. Not only do we have no more influence than the other users of this board, but the simple fact that this discussion is continuing is enough proof to refute your position.
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I really am impressed at how you try to pin everything on me or Cadet or the others who speak up and tell you what they think. I love it when you and the others of your little circle lay blame and slam folks and then claim you are only doing it to get us to stop. And anything said is an attack on the company or the persons running it...do you have anything NEW to say on that or is it going to be repeated time and again?
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Yes, I have something new to say:
Quit jumping at shadows.
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Sayeth Peter Smith:
The CBT Message Board is mine in the same manner as the network at the corporation I work at is mine. The figurative "I work to maintain it so I can say with pride that I am an administrator" versus the literal "I own the server, connection and license for the board software." Not that the first two matter, actually, for the entire site is hosted from a privately-held server.
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So you are saying that no matter what YOU own CBT and FANPRO doesn't?
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Point to the part in my statement where I make that assertment.
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Now that is interesting, since you are not a paid employee yet you OWN the board, but then point out the site is hosted on a private server, so which is? Does FANPRO control the board, or do you?
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Ownership of the server and the connection are irrellevent to the issue at hand. Would you say that since Slayer does not own the machine that Sarna is hosted on that he does not control his system? As for control of the board, I have day-to-day control of the message board. However, I receive my direction from FanPro. So, in effect, we both control it.
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Make up your mind, Peter, because so far you are going in cicrles. You claim you want to hear the input, but then if you don't like it or like WHO is giving it, you and your friends make hash of the person and the topic so as to prove what?
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It's interesting you can make that statement in the same thread in which an actual discussion about the issue at hand is occuring, with people on both sides of the issue. Strange...
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The bottom line is a lot of the fans do want the Unseen back in picture form, either as they were original done or in a new picture via the way the Longbow was redone, hopefully better then that one, and some would like to see miniatures to go along with those new pictures.
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Nothing would make me happier than getting the original artwork back. However, I live in the real world and understand how nasty of an issue that would be. And re-drawing the 'Mechs isn't re-releasing the artwork, it's introducing new 'Mechs.
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Now if FP and WK are out to imporve both BT and make money this would seem to be an easy way to do both, yet all we here is and I quote "it won't please everyone so we aren't going to do it".
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If you're going to do something as radical as re-issue new artwork for the Unseen, three questions need to be answered: Should we do this? Can we afford to do this? Can we explain it in the game?
People want them, so the first answer is most likely a yes. Since I have no idea how artwork is bought, I cannot even hazzard guessing what the answer to the second question is. The real issue comes up with the third question. How do give an acceptable in-game to explain why, after hundreds of years, some of the most commonly used designs have all of the sudden changed their appearance? Or how, staying purely within the game, do you explain why two different minis used in a game are supposed to be the same 'Mech? Yes, there were some minis that were resculpted. However, if you put an old one next to a new one, your average player would be able to see they were the same 'Mech.
BTW...it was this last question that was never addressed by FASA when they lost the Unseen in the first place. That was their biggest mistake, not trying to explain away the designs.
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If that was the case, then we wouldn't have Protomechs in the game since a lot of the fans hate them
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Yeah, they were hated so much that MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans introduced the Blood Spirit ProtoMech Pilot Training Stage 4 Life Path. And people were so disgusted with them that the were outraged that the ProtoMech construction rules were included in the Revised BMR.
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so how about opening your mind up to the idea that kind of statement is going to raise a few eyebrows and get folks to voice their opinions that they DO want to see the UNSEEN again and back to their status as THE MECHS of the game.
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Interesting. Their status as "The 'Mechs" of the game. Well, a quick look at the BV chart puts the highest rated Unseen at #4 (one of the RS:3067 Marauder IIs). The next time one appears is #28, then #40, #46, #48, then #49. Apparantly, as far as overall power goes, the Unseen only compose 12% of the top 50. What's even more interesting is the only Unseen in the top 50 that is not from the 3067 Record Sheet book is the MAD-4A Marauder II. However, this list does not include Clan designs. However, if you wish to see where they stack up when you include Clantech, the Marauder II C comes in at #5. It's not until the Phoenix Hawk IIC at #34 that you get an Unseen that was around pre-RS3067. Then the next pre-RS3067 Unseen is the 84th overall design (there were four RS3067, numbers 71, 73, 76, 78). I would say your statement about the Unseen being "The" 'Mechs of the game is about as subjective as you can get.
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Peter_Smith
Capellan Confederation
Yi-si-ben-bing
Joined: 25-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 122
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 19:53 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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On 2002-04-09 16:53, chihawk wrote:
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On 2002-04-08 22:12, Peter_Smith wrote:
Well, if the game is not about the minis themselves, but the 'Mechs, why would it matter what mini they use when they use an Unseen design?
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My answer is probably going to surprise you a little, but I have no idea why it matters. Honestly; I don't know.
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That's probably something that should be looked into. Why it does matter in the first place.
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But it does. And that's a good enough reason to to redraw them IMO.
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So how do you explain, in-game, why the images for 'Mechs that have been used for centuries all of the sudden look differently? That was probably FASA's biggest mistake when dealing with the outcome of the Unseen-not giving a good in-game explination of why they're no longer seen in the majority of units. My only guess is that plants are being re-tooled for newer designs and orders for the older designs are simply not being placed.
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Now if I had to guess why they want it to matter is because many of the new players of this game are former and current players of other miniature games like 40K, etc, in which it matters what mini you have, and many are taking that "tradition" into Battletech with them.
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Well, then it's the responsiblity of the person teaching the new gamers that BattleTech is not, nor has ever been, about the minis. Remind them that if it were, every 'Mech design would have a mini associated with it. Also point out that even in the official tournies you don't have to bring a BattleMech mini. Just anything to mark the unit's position and facing.
It did, and I did miss one. And I disagree with the special rule. I don't like the fact that I cannot run a design of my choice simply because I don't have the proper piece of lead. As you brought up above, it's a carry-over from 40k. It's also one of the things that separates BTech from other mini games.
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Thanks.
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No worries.
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 907
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Apr-2002 22:50 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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Quote:
Interesting. Their status as "The 'Mechs" of the game. Well, a quick look at the BV chart puts the highest rated Unseen at #4 (one of the RS:3067 Marauder IIs). The next time one appears is #28, then #40, #46, #48, then #49. Apparantly, as far as overall power goes, the Unseen only compose 12% of the top 50. What's even more interesting is the only Unseen in the top 50 that is not from the 3067 Record Sheet book is the MAD-4A Marauder II. However, this list does not include Clan designs. However, if you wish to see where they stack up when you include Clantech, the Marauder II C comes in at #5. It's not until the Phoenix Hawk IIC at #34 that you get an Unseen that was around pre-RS3067. Then the next pre-RS3067 Unseen is the 84th overall design (there were four RS3067, numbers 71, 73, 76, 78). I would say your statement about the Unseen being "The" 'Mechs of the game is about as subjective as you can get.
End Quote
The relative power by BV of the Unseens is not the issue here at all.
First off, for that arguement to even be considered you would have to account for the fact that the Unseens are mostly Level 1 tech, while those that had Level 2 (3050) tech were usually field upgrades or minor modifications. Of course they are going to get spanked by newer model mechs when it comes to BV, since they were purposely designed around the newer tech, and were designed to take advantage of it. The new designs are at the cutting edge of the learning curve in using new tech, whereas the refitted Unseens were experimental at best.
The real issue, as has been stated numerous times already, is that the Unseens have become, well, Unseen. They have all but disappeared from the novels and manuals, aside from a few stray mentions here and there. RS 3067 may have some updates for them, but with no image published with them, the only ones likely to use them are the old timers who cut their teeth with them. Most people when they first start playing pick mechs based on how they look. If there is no picture to look at, then it is usually not even considered an option. We have an entire generation or more (the Clans consider 5 years to be a generation, and in this case rightly so) that have never seen the Unseens. It is as if the Unseens never existed. Sure, maybe you can explain a lack of new ones by having all of the factory lines be retooled for new designs, but what about the thousands that have been around through 300+ years. Don't tell me that all of them suddenly wore out!
Redrewaing the Unseen has it's precedent with the Longbow. The difference in looks can be explained with the same excuse used above: the factory lines were retooled. Advancements in weapons and armor construction allowed for more effecient ways of manufacturing which resulted in some minor aesthetic differences. Also, it can be said that when the old designs were given a serious upgrade instead of a field refit, the engineers, who now better understand mech design processes, (which had been all but lost until the Star League Memory Core was decoded) decided to "jazz up" the designs for a new generation of buyers. How many different body styles have we seen for the Mustang, etc. ? Some may prefer one style over another, but they are still all Mustangs (or whatever). The different models may have different performance specs, but at the core they are still essentially the same old design. Maybe the headlights look different, but they both still illuminate the road.
OK, the car analogy isn't perfect, but I think it fits close enough. Unseens of different body styles can co-exist without any real difficulty if handled properly. Some of us will be driving the "New for 3067!" model, while some of us will be driving the "Classic Model from Back-in-the-Day". Those of us that don't like either of these options can always go drive something else.
Ronin
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Peter_Smith
Capellan Confederation
Yi-si-ben-bing
Joined: 25-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 122
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| Posted: 11-Apr-2002 17:12 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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The difference in looks can be explained with the same excuse used above: the factory lines were retooled. Advancements in weapons and armor construction allowed for more effecient ways of manufacturing which resulted in some minor aesthetic differences.
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The problem is that most of the new technology isn't new. It's recovered from the days of the Star League. If this were the case, the Unseen would have seen a change then as well.
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OK, the car analogy isn't perfect, but I think it fits close enough.
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Actually, it's one of the best ideas I've seen to explain possible differences. However, there is that one issue I mentioned above. If there wasn't the rise of the Star League and the new technologies, or the fall and decline of said technologies, then it would probably be the simplest and therefore the best answer.
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 907
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13-Apr-2002 18:44 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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Quote:
Actually, it's one of the best ideas I've seen to explain possible differences. However, there is that one issue I mentioned above. If there wasn't the rise of the Star League and the new technologies, or the fall and decline of said technologies, then it would probably be the simplest and therefore the best answer.
End Quote
OK, this may require a bit more of a stretch of the imagniation, but here goes:
Remember in the fluff text at various points it is mentioned that certain mechs were under a manufacturer's recall to fix a certain problem or another? Well, what if while decoding the Star League Memory Core a list is found of all mech (and vehicles and aero assests for that matter) that were recalled. Many of these recall orders (the Unseens) were lost in the confusion of the Amaris uprising, etc. Now that the list has been found, all of the Unseens disappeared for a while because the owner/operators took them in for the refits, and no new ones were manufactured until the recall modifications could be made to the manufacturing lines. The modifications required some substitution of parts possibly, or at the very least the manufacturers decided to "update" the image of the mechs in order to boost sales that had flagged in favor of all the new "cutting edge" technology mechs that were being manufactured. Continuing with the car analogy, this would be much akin to the Classic Volkswagon Bug versus the New Volkswagon Bug.
Ronin
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Peter_Smith
Capellan Confederation
Yi-si-ben-bing
Joined: 25-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 122
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 18:32 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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On 2002-04-13 18:44, Ronin wrote:
OK, this may require a bit more of a stretch of the imagniation, but here goes:
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No more really than fusion powered war machines or point-to-point interstellar transportation. However, it does fit the universe as it stands. Maybe extend the period of decline to include the 1st Succession War, taking advantage of the general decline in technology as part of the reasoning.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 18:48 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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On 2002-04-15 18:32, Peter_Smith wrote:
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On 2002-04-13 18:44, Ronin wrote:
OK, this may require a bit more of a stretch of the imagniation, but here goes:
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No more really than fusion powered war machines or point-to-point interstellar transportation. However, it does fit the universe as it stands. Maybe extend the period of decline to include the 1st Succession War, taking advantage of the general decline in technology as part of the reasoning.
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Sounds like we found the reasoning to have the redrawn UNSEEN, now how about we try to come up with some reasonable ways to convince WK/FP to seriously LOOK into the matter...
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2002 14:12 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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[/quote]
Sounds like we found the reasoning to have the redrawn UNSEEN, matter...
[/quote]
You cannot reason with corprate suits. They always know what is best and what the public wants.
YEAH RIGHT
_________________
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2002 14:32 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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They may know it, but they do not use it.
Sir HEnry
_________________
Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2002 20:03 Post subject: Too cool!! |
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Contrary to fans, who ALWAYS know whats best. ;p
Paul
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