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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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 Posted: 03-Mar-2002 15:43 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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I had read several references on the CBT board to the book Imminent Crisis which apparently states that warships are largely ineffective. Are these people all smoking ganja or does the book really say that?
If it does than the writer must be smoking ganja. I cannot see how the most impressive massing of firepower in the known universe is ineffective, unless those fighting adopt wimpy rules like "don't decimate the planet." 
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-03-03 15:43 ]
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Gangrene
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5611
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Mar-2002 18:31 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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i agree.
unless your adopting 'human tactics' your warship is the pinnicle of warfair.
1, just 1. destroyer or corvette, if [n this is a very small if] stationed at an interception point of an attacking dropship fleet. will be able to destroy or render said fleet ineffective.
battlemechs may be the king of the battlefield, but as every commander knows. you got to get your units on the beach, or there just another object headin for the bottom.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1863
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2002 23:03 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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WarShips are inneffective because the orbital bombardment risks Ares Conventions violations, civilian casualities and friendly fire problems...also, they are extremely vulnerable to fighters...so, it comes down to this...do you spend 21 billion D-Bills (price quoted from Imminent Crisis) on ONE Fox-class corvette, or do you spend that money on REGIMENTS of fighters, 'Mechs, conventional infantry and battle armor, the DropShips to carry them in and the JumpShips to transport them where you need them?
I know where my money goes...
Ruger
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Mar-2002 23:13 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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Oh yes the vaunted Ares Convention...I do love how it's so tossed around as to why something won't work or can't be used...
History check, they tossed it out the window in the first two succesion wars, so who is to say it won't be tossed out again?
Plus there have been enough violations of it shown recently form the WoB using posin gas to the CapCon doing the same to the Smoked Jaguars blasting a city up to the Skye Rebles doing the same thing.
Orbitial bombarment is nothing more then super artillery, you call it in and if it hits where you want it then great it works, if not, try again.
The idea that just because the authors don't want to write about warship combat and that the MAIN storyline pushes them out of the picture again, (MWDA) doesn't mean they are not effective, it means no one wants to use them in the game, so they are written off, and things move on. Plus how they were written in the novels didn't show them as anything more then space born artillery...The warships I think got handled wrong as far as how they were shown in the fiction, and in the rules. Maybe if they writters had done the battles between them better there wouldn't be as bad as they are...and then the rules might not have been so well silly...but that's water over the bridge now...
And the cost issue Ruger brought, up is simple to poke holes, in look at the price of today's aircraft carriers, the US has how many? I am sure there are a few generals who wished the money to build them and ALL of the ships in the navy was put towards tanks, and APCs....but with out those ships how would the generals fight and defend without their supply lines???
Warships can keep a system in line so to speak since it can project it's power to force the citizens to take head that the CO of the warship can raze the planet if they don't fall in to line. And what planet other then the Clan home worlds and Terra have an SDS system to stop them?
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Karagin
If you can strike few with many, you will thus minimize the number of those with whom you do battle.
[ This Message was edited by: Karagin on 2002-03-05 00:22 ]
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 00:00 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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On 2002-03-04 23:03, Ruger wrote:
WarShips are inneffective because the orbital bombardment risks Ares Conventions violations, civilian casualities and friendly fire problems...also, they are extremely vulnerable to fighters...so, it comes down to this...do you spend 21 billion D-Bills (price quoted from Imminent Crisis) on ONE Fox-class corvette, or do you spend that money on REGIMENTS of fighters,
Ruger
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The problem is that, as far as rules are concerned, aerospace fighters are not that effective against warships. Heck, it would take a few regiments of fighters to even try to match a warship.
Now its been a while since I have last played Bspace, and even longer since I last designed a warship, but if I recall correctly those things were bristling with point defense weapons and fighter-killing missiles (at least mine were). And it's not like fighters are mounting anti-warship space torpedos; their weapons are pretty pathetic in comparison. If a warship was stationed at a jump point all the stationary fighters in the universe couldn't save the invaders when their dropships started getting blasted because they had no warship cover.
As for the Ares Convention - you have me there. Even good ol' Vic couldn't get away with blasting planets.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-03-05 00:01 ]
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Gangrene
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5611
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 01:11 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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On 2002-03-04 23:03, Ruger wrote:
WarShips are inneffective because the orbital bombardment risks Ares Conventions violations, civilian casualities and friendly fire problems
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as for orbital bombardment. yes it risks Ares, yes it risks civis, and most certainly risk friendlies.
against the Ares, no argument. it was made for a pourpose. but how long before people throw it out the window? maybe when they realize the ability to destroy a town, base, of factory from space in less then 5 mins. then you can move on, n actual combat strategy.
civis. wrong place. wrong time. so sad. so sorry. watcha gonna do, they could've surrendor. empirial doctrin 101, rule thru fear. while i'm not a muderin bastard. civis suffer in any war. its an unescapable fact. so either let it hinder your advantage or adjust acceptable looses. even the us did.
friendly fire, it isent. but artillery n airsupport have time, n time again provin a great aid or hinderence to an attacking force. when out numbered, its used as a shield. and i personel feel that a company of mechs cut off by a regamint would be more then willing to chance there deaths to bombardment at point blank range then die having not tried every option.
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...also, they are extremely vulnerable to fighters...so, it comes down to this...do you spend 21 billion D-Bills (price quoted from Imminent Crisis) on ONE Fox-class corvette, or do you spend that money on REGIMENTS of fighters, 'Mechs, conventional infantry and battle armor, the DropShips to carry them in and the JumpShips to transport them where you need them?
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pilots, munitions, attrition, training, maintence, food, water, cloths, repairs.... what do these have in common. cost. the hidden cost of maintaining and building a regiment of fighters, battlemechs, n dropships.
jumpship. immobile target. only protected by Ares.
dropship large fighter equivalent. crew of 90+
mechs. almost 100 percent useless off the ground. cost 5 million plus per. crew 1.
fighter. limited range. duration. armor. if a mech can disable 1, whats a 500k plus ton space vessel gonna do. ALOT. even a near miss is to close for a fighter to handle, when its a naval ppc. when used in mass. there dangerous yes. but were the loose of a fighter is 100 percent. warships are usually tacticly killed, or disabled. then theres the pin point defense weapons, that only FASA left off. then theres warship defensive fighters. who are a, fresh when launched, fully loaded, n undamaged.
so my money will go in to a warship. but to each his own.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 07:48 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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Vagabond, Remind me never to serve with you, or Hire you.
Risking Civilians, the People who Pay you, is one of the stupidest Ideas I've heard come out of someone here, in a long time....Since mud's disarmament policy....
Who's ever going to pay you if you become known as someone who will kill everyone????Bad guys, Good guys or Civilians....No one I know of, except maybe Kali's Thugee idiots or the Flaky WOBbies...
Sir Henry, Who likes his job, and wants to keep it.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5611
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 15:44 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-05 07:48, Sir Henry wrote:
Vagabond, Remind me never to serve with you, or Hire you.
Risking Civilians, the People who Pay you, is one of the stupidest Ideas I've heard come out of someone here, in a long time....Since mud's disarmament policy....
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i knew this one was gonna get misunderstood. usually if you are commiting orbital bombardment. a] you not a merc n b] your usually the attacking force.
time again in war fair civi loses have happened.
hiroshima.
nagasaki.
berlin.
london.
to name a few. all of these attacks where deemed, militarily acceptible even thou there was most certainly going to be non combative looses.
it was with heavy hearts that soldiers launched these attacks. i know they didnt want to. hell i appor civi loses. there not the target.
but if you let an enemy capitalize on your inaction when there maybe civi loses. you giving them a safe place to hide, n rebuild.
and that would be a military blunder.
my personel doctrin is leave civis 0ut of it, and anybody that hides behind the bodies of humans. is a murdist bastard.
i was just stating the military acceptable lose theorium.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5611
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 15:46 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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as is stated by a briliant man....
whats the first solution to a hostage situation?
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remove the hostage.
then the criminals have nothing to hide behind.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5611
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 15:48 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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Who's ever going to pay you if you become known as someone who will kill everyone????Bad guys, Good guys or Civilians....
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somebody who needs the job done.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Talen
Capellan Confederation
Sang-shao
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1269
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 15:51 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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Brilliant man? Wasnt that in "Speed" with "Mr. Whoa"?
As for the civilian losess. I have 2 words for you...
Total War
A policy that saw its first major use in the Civil War with Sherman's March to the Sea. If you are orbitaly bombarding someone, it is USUALLY the enemy and the idea is to stop the enemie's ability to make war. Whether or not that actually happens (London and Berlin being prime examples of Total War failing as it rallied the civilians to fight harder) is up to the history books.
-Talen Tseng-A Full supporter of the Sovetski-Soyuz Oribital Bombardment of ANY target, except for where I am, that is!
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"Historians exercise great power and some of them know it. They recreate the past, changing it to fit their own interpretations. Thus, they change the future as well." - Leto II
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1863
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 19:29 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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Let me poke a few holes in some theories here...
1) The Inner Sphere and the Clans have both gone away from mass killing of civilians...they realize that to do this once invites doing it again...you'll notice that everyone that has been proven to have done this has either been killed or has been locked away for a good long time...
2) It is NOT the Inner Sphere NOR the Clans as a whole that have given up WarShip production...it is the LYRAN ALLIANCE and the FEDERATED SUNS...they have armies they have to rebuild...defensive/offensive troops have more importance over offensive WarShips...
3) As for Carriers, that is something else all together...If I have to have WarShips, they WILL be Thera-class supercarriers and Kyushu-class assault frigates...the first carries my fighters and support DropShips, the second carries my regiments of 'Mechs and support DropShips...
IMHO, these are the only WarShips worth the price...
4)You all seem to forget one thing...the WarShip (ie, the battleship) has been rendered obsolete by fighters...and IIRC, the rules from Aerotech 2 reflect this as far as their armor goes...And you know why? Little things called Alamos and Arrow IV missiles...with nice big targets...
So, yes...IMO, the WarShip isn't really worth the money...
btw, vagabond? All those cities you mentioned with civilian losses? They didn't stop the fighting...they hardened the people that survived them...and before you argue Japan, they were prepared to fight TO THE LAST MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD...it was THE EMPEROR, who was GOD, that stopped them...
Ruger
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2002 19:47 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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I can see using orbital bombardment on battlefield targets. Maybe even a Mech factory. any other use would be stupid. I think that is what Vagabond was getting at. Even restricting yourself to military targets a few rounds are going to land off target, hence collateral damage. Something that is not liked, but lived with.
If I have a company of mechs who are facing a regiment of mechs and supporting forces,calling down orbital bombardment woulsd be an option. If you are in a city, I would say no.
The use of orbital bombardment would have to be defined by the rules of engagement. Those rules would have to do their best to comply with the ares convention. I would have to reread them, but the orbital bombardment only applied in regard to civilian targets.
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 04:32 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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I have always considered warships ineffective in battletech simply because there are so very few of them and so many planets they are tasked to defend or attack. However there is an area I've been thinking about that could make warships a campaign or offensive winning element. That would be the Free Worlds League. In the 3025 FWL sourcebook, it says that they have 10 shipyards that produce some 30 jumpships and 80 dropships per year, plus over 300 fighters. No doubt since 3025 the Mariks have managed to improve on that some, since they haven't had anybody invading them, etc. Let's be conservative and just say that House Marik can have an even dozen warhsips under construction at any one time, most of them completed in a year or so.
I don't recall any other house having more than a fraction of that construction capability. I would hypothesize that House Marik could in the future win whole wars with warships. Since other Houses would be doing good to assemble a cruiser and a couple of corvettes or destroyers in one place for one fight, the Mariks would be sending warships out to fight in squadron and Task Force strength.
All suface bombardment aside. If the Mariks decide to park a few carriers and a dozen cruisers and destroyers in the system they want to invade, it would take the entire Lyran, Capellan, Comstar, or Davion Navy to even try to take it back. And the Mariks would have another Task Force just as big in the next system over waiting to jump in and relieve the first Task Force.
The destruction or surrender of defending forces on the ground would just be a matter of time. And if the cruiser overhead should spot a company or battalion of defender mechs out away from the nearest town, why thay could zap it and end the fighting that much faster.
And if the entire combined naval forces of the Inner Sphere try to gang up on House Marik, it wouldn't matter. Going by that sourcebook, I'd say each year House Marik can build as many warships if not more than the whole rest of the Inner Sphere combined, and maybe a Clan or two thrown in on top of that.
In the update FWL field manual, the Mariks have a public fleet and a secret fleet. 13 total ships, plus 18 more being built or fixed up by June of 3063. So how big was that Secret Fleet again?
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5611
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2002 03:46 Post subject: Warships not effective? |
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let us not forget the warships greatest weapon.
FEAR.....
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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