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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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 Posted: 26-Nov-2002 10:37 Post subject: Some house rules for ACs. |
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Heya.
Just mumbling out loud about some house rule ideas I had. I'd appreciate any and all input.
AC's. In my humble opinion, they're underpowered. As such, the following is mostly intended to make them more powerful or interesting.
I also hope to keep any modifications simple, and easy to use in play.
House rule:
AC's can fire once or twice per turn.
LBX AC's can fire once or twice per turn.
UAC's can fire once, twice or four times per turn.
Each attempt to fire is resolved as a seperate attack.
IE, Clint fires it's AC/5 on a Hermes, and elects to fire it twice that turn.
He crosses off two ammo, makes two to-hit rolls, and adds 2 heat in the Heat Phase.
Enforcer fires it's AC/10 on a Hermes.
Two ammo gone, 2 to-hit rolls, and 6 heat is added that Heat Phase.
LBX AC's can elect to either fire slug twice, Cluster twice, or slug and cluster in the same turn.
UAC's may lock up when firing in 4x mode. In 1x and 2x mode, they never will.
RACs will not exist. The potential to fire 6 times in a turn is rediculous, let alone lobbing crap 12 times a turn.
The above makes AC toting 'Mechs a lot more powerful. A JagerMech now has a 28 damage potential at range, considerably more respectably for a Heavy Mech.
The use of AC's vs. Aero's makes more sense; their range allows for greater accuracy, their rate of fire allows for more hits, and the more often you actually hit a ASF, the more likely it it to pop. (As in, hitting it 3 times with an AC5 is more likely to destroy an ASF then hitting it once with a GR. Unless the sucker has got 51 or more armor on a location, which admitedly is not uncommon)
The favoritism of ACs with the Clans also makes sense.
Ammo will also run out a lot faster, a good thing in my opinion.
Problems:
- It makes AC's too powerful.
Right now energy weapons rule BTech. This is supposed to make AC's take the cake.
However, it shouldn't make everthing else useless. I don't think it does, but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.
- AC10's and AC20's become too unbalanced.
AC10's are currently one of the best 3025 weapons, so them becoming more useful then PPCs is not necessarily a bad thing. The PPC has got slightly better range, and won't run out of ammo. A patient Griffin should still defeat an Enforcer, unless said ENF manages to get into short range.
Still, a 'Mech like the Annihilator comes to mind. That's a bit of an extreme in the spectrum though.
AC20's become less evil then it seems, I think. 14 heat is nothing to sneeze at in 3025. Neither is the fact that save for the Cyclops and Victor, your average 3025 AC20 platform will empty it's ammo out in 5 turns if maintaining the maximum rate. Like above, if you're patient, and don't hang around in short n medium range, you're fine. If you're in short, you're screwed. But you would be anyway with just normal AC rules, now you're screwed only a bit harder. 
- uAC's become too unbalanced.
4 shots a turn is quite brutal. Perhaps too brutal. The amount of heat for larger uAC's will be obscene though, esspecially uAC20's, and the ammo will be gone even faster. However, while it lasts, life will be quite unpleasant. Perhaps too unpleasant? You tell me.
As you can tell, all my perceived problems basically boil down to game balance.
Perhaps I've missed a few.
One should note that I've considered 'banning' AC20's from my game just like RAC's. They'd be replaced by an AC10 and 2 ML. (That HBK rocks )
Other ideas I've played around with: alternate AC ammo's.
It's interesting that I actually thought of the AP and precision AC ammo before FM:FS. My idea wasn't quite as munchy, but the official ammo has made the idea a bit obselete.
Here's one though: Improved LBX Cluster ammo.
Improved Cluster ammo weighs as much, and supplies as much turns of fire as normal ammo. It does cost twice as much.
(Making the special ammo provide less rounds of fire always struck me as weird. If the physical rounds are larger, how come they still work in AC's? Actual caliber has never been much of an issue in Btech, so it's all good, I suppose. Plus that cheezy ammo needs it to balance it.)
Improved Cluster ammo functions as normal cluster ammo, however, after actually hitting a target, add 2 to the dice roll result when determining the number of hits on the appropriate Missile Hits table.
Other ammo idea:
HE ammo.
Half(round down) the damage of HE ammo when used against armored targets. (Mechs, vehicles, ASF, DropShips, an armored turret, a hardened building)
Double the damage when strikes unarmored targets. (Infantry, buildings, fauna)
Useful for sieges. Turrets tend to have an unarmored base. Cities tend to be the first casualties in any war. Where I'm involved in.
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Kyu Kage
ComStar
Captain
Joined: 16-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 503
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 12:32 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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These are pretty good.
Have you play tested them yet? They might need a little tweaking....
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Loyalty above all else except honour!
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1325
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 13:19 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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I think it was Vagabond who suggested that AC 5s do 7 points of damage and AC 2s do 3. Things makes the lower grade ACs much more powerful and puts the AC/5 into line with the Large Laser.
I have played this out and like the results.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 16:11 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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I have, although in a limited amount.
Some of my conclusions based on that can already be found in the 1st post.
Enforcers are great fun with these rules, and I find myself using the standard LL/AC10 combo as often as an AC10 double tap.
Wolverines and Shadow Hawks now give Griffins quite a run for their money in long range duels.
A JagerMech is now quite a threat. It's not unlike being under fire from an Archer with a lot of ammo and no heat problems.
A Hunchback IIC is now very amusing. Having it unload eight 20-point 'rounds' at a target is a good laugh, more so since it's obscene amount of heat (56 from the AC's, 4 from jumping, and I threw both erMLs in to) immediately caused the last 2 rounds to pop, destroying it as well.
A custum Clan Omni I made (should post it one of these days. 90 tons) that relied almost completely on ACs (ultra n LBx) became a true horror. 6 uAC5's -> 24 shots of 5 damage. 4 LBx10's, no vehicle survived 1 salvo. It also had the ammo to actually stay in the field, even with these rules.
My only concern with playtesting is that AC10's of any type become very very powerful. AC20's are reigned in by their range and heat (and small ammo supply), but AC10's have good heat n very decent ranges overall.
I'm playing with the idea to either make em generate 4 or 5 heat per round, or to reduce their range.
Any thoughts?
Any other ideas for tweaking?
Paul
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 16:19 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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Hmm, AC/3's and AC/7's. Interesting.
Even less work then my ideas. 
Any thoughts on that, incidentally?
Paul
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2058
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 17:07 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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On 2002-11-26 16:11, Paul wrote:
Any thoughts?
Any other ideas for tweaking?
Paul
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Damn...looks like I need to post AWAD's following fire rules again...somewhat similar to what you have, but progressive shots have targeting penalties to hit...for instance, AC-2s can be fired up to 4 times a round at +0/+1/+2/+3 to hit...an AC-5 can be fired up to 3 times a round but at +0/+2/+4 to hit...an AC-10 and AC-20 can only be fired twice a round at +0/+3 and +0/+5 to hit (IIRC)...UACs only came in 2s and 5s...UAC-2s could be fired up to 8 times a round at +0/+1/+1/+2/+2/+3/+3/+4 to hit and UAC-5s up to 5 times a round at +0/+1/+2/+3/+4 to hit...LBs only came in 10s and 20s and had the same to hit mods as normal ACs of their type...if you want smaller LBs, use the to hits for AC-2s and AC-5s...and if you want ultras in the larger sizes, try +0/+2/+4 for the UAC-10 and +0/+3 for the UAC-20...you also add the penalty to hit to the chance to jam your gun due to rapid firing...
Heat is as normal per shot fired...yes, this means a Daikyu or a Rifleman firing dual UAC-5s at max rate, or a JagerMech 3 firing its dual UAC-2s at max rate can generate up to 16 heat a round just from its ACs...
These rules were created before RACs, so it might be tricky adding them in...although I was thinking using the ultra firing rates, and just letting them use specialty ammo loads...
And it was Vampire who came up with the AC-3 and AC-7...
Ruger
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 17:42 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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I think it was Vagabond who suggested that AC 5s do 7 points of damage and AC 2s do 3. Things makes the lower grade ACs much more powerful and puts the AC/5 into line with the Large Laser.
I have played this out and like the results.
*ahem* give credit where credit is due It was *MY* idea.
Geez, guys, I turn my back for half a second, and look what happens 
You are forgiven, I'm pleased to know you like the fix
and Paul... about stuff on ACs, I'm the resident expert here and anwyhere 
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Memento audare semper
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 21:48 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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and Paul... about stuff on ACs, I'm the resident expert here and anwyhere
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Note that that should read "self-proclaimed resident expert . . ."
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Gangrene
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 22:01 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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How about you 2 one-up eachother by writing a scathing critisism of my ideas? =)
Seriously, I'd greatly appreciate any input from either of you.
Paul
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 22:05 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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I have considered adding modifiers for the second round of fire, but felt it'd complicate matters too much.
variable rates of fire is a thought as well, although that's more likely to make them even more powerful then they are right now.
Still, what do you think of the rules as they are right now?
And yeah, Vampire's taken the appropriate amount of credit.
Paul
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2058
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| Posted: 26-Nov-2002 23:00 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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Quote:
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On 2002-11-26 22:05, Paul wrote:
I have considered adding modifiers for the second round of fire, but felt it'd complicate matters too much.
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Years of playtesting disagree with that statement...it's actually quite easy to get the hang of it...I was doing it quite well in the first hour of my first BTech gaming session....
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variable rates of fire is a thought as well, although that's more likely to make them even more powerful then they are right now.
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Counterbalanced by the heat and high ammo consumption, we didn't find it to be too terribly overbalanced...
Plus it was fun to see a Whitworth pricked to death by a moddied Daikyu with 2 UAC-2s in the hands of a Natural Gunner with a base of 1 at medium range (yes, this character was played up to this point after years of playing him, starting at a base of 4 or 5)...15 out of 16 UAC hits (with the other jamming that UAC) and an ER PPC does not make for a pleasant evening for a 40 ton 'Mech...
His 'Mech became named the "Hailstorm" after that...
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Still, what do you think of the rules as they are right now?
And yeah, Vampire's taken the appropriate amount of credit.
Paul
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I'll have to take another look at them...but I don't really care for getting what is, in essence a second free shot...
Ruger
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 11:55 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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[quote]
On 2002-11-26 23:00, Ruger wrote:
Years of playtesting disagree with that statement...it's actually quite easy to get the hang of it...I was doing it quite well in the first hour of my first BTech gaming session....
[quote]
Fair enough. I'll keep that in mind.
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I'll have to take another look at them...but I don't really care for getting what is, in essence a second free shot...
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The main difference between AWAD's and mine system seems to be that his allows for even more free shots then mine, although the to-hit modifier increases.
In both cases, ammo n heat goes up just as much (unless I misread something)
That modifier could make all the difference, of course. I look forward to your thoughts.
And yeah, regardless of which system, extreme 'Mechs such as that Bane with 10 uAC2's or Mechs with 2 uAC20's become truly fearsome.
But then, Mechs loaded down with PPC's and LPL and TC's right now are also obscenely fearsome. Depending on what weapon the rules favor, a unit that fields that weapon in extreme amounts will always seem munchy.
Prob coz it is.
Paul
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1325
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 12:05 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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KEYWORD 'think'....I left myself an escape route....I plead a case of the confusing 'V's.
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The JadeDragon
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1325
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 12:06 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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Your rules I find overkill....they put the ACs into a class all by themselves that is unbalancing.
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The JadeDragon
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 15:57 Post subject: RE: Some house rules for ACs. |
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Quote:
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On 2002-11-27 12:06, Jade_Dragon wrote:
Your rules I find overkill....they put the ACs into a class all by themselves that is unbalancing.
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Ah! The first truly negative comment.
Thanks.
(No, that's not sarcasm, I am pleased that someone's critisizing it.)
Anyway, I realize it's all fairly subjective, but I would like to emphasize something:
The object of the rules is to put them in a class of their own. To make them more devastating then energy weapons, whose main advantage (IMHO) should be that they don't rely on ammunition.
So I'm happy to hear that the rules are at least partly successful.
However, it's quite possible that I've overshot my goal, which is what you also seem to suggest.
When considering my intention (make ACs more powerful) do you still feel I've gone too far?
If so, can you think of any measures that'll help balance things out a bit?
Paul
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