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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
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 Posted: 26-Feb-2002 08:25 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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I'ts funny you should say that, Camille. That's exactly the way they are mostly played. It's easy to find a Paladin, It's hard to find a Proper Paladin.
-Sir Henry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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AcidQueen
Capellan Confederation
Si-ben-bing
Joined: 22-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 26-Feb-2002 16:01 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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On 2002-02-26 08:25, Sir Henry wrote:
I'ts funny you should say that, Camille. That's exactly the way they are mostly played. It's easy to find a Paladin, It's hard to find a Proper Paladin. |
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Well I look at it like this.
Your average Paladin should start out as a Self-Righteous Creep--after all, he's been sequestered in the walls of his order's HQ for years and years and fed nothing but propaganda. So of course he's going to be annoying as all get-out because he has this narrow little world-view that he tries to fit everything into.
Then he finds out how the world works, and realizes that Justice sometimes has to be served by taking on allies that you ordinarily would not take on or by turning a blind eye to one of your traveling companions' doing something that you originally wouldn't let him get away with--he still believes in Truth and Justice and Doing The Right Thing, but he's finally getting a clue that Right and Wrong is not always about Black and White.
Sadly, so few players understand this.
--Camille.
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What part of "LEAVE ME ALONE" is so hard to understand?
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Ronin
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| Posted: 26-Feb-2002 17:21 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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A paladin does not need to compromise on principles in order to be properly played as anything other than annoying. Turning a blind eye towards actions that a paladin cannot condone in others is an ethos violation, because by allowing it to occur he is giving his tacit approval of the action. A paladin can hold to his ethics and still accomplish his objectives if he spends a little more time thinking about it, and more importantly (at least for ROLE playing purposes) asking his deity through prayer.
Not all paladins are cloistered off from the world during training. A paladin can simply be a faithful farmboy filled will piety and religious fervor seeking to champion the cause of Good and Justice. A paladin's origins are limited only by the imagination of the player and the DM.
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AcidQueen
Capellan Confederation
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Joined: 22-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 26-Feb-2002 19:25 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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You're being far too black and white. What will you as a Paladin do if your quest for justice requires that you (for example) enter into an alliance, however temporary, with such entities as (for example) illithids so that you can defeat a common foe?
--Camille.
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Ronin
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| Posted: 28-Feb-2002 20:51 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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As long as the illithids behave themselves while they are in my company, then I will work with them as long as needed. I will not knowingly permit them to commit any evil acts, period. That is of course assuming that there is absolutely no other way, and that our mutual enemy is indeed a greater evil than they are. Even then, I would avoid working with them directly if possible, instead allowing them to fight their fight, and while they are occupying the attention of the uber-evil, I will launch my own attacks. Of course, if I had any doubts, my Paladin would just ask his patron diety through prayer or consulting the deity's mouthpiece. If the patron deity says it is kosher, then that is good enough for my paladin. But that does not mean I will drop my vigilance around the illithids.
The fact is that Paladins are supposed to see things in black and white. They are paragons of virture, champions of justice, etc. etc. If a DM has a Paladin in his group and he is purposely putting the Paladin into positions where he has absolutely no choice but to compromise his ethics, then the DM is running the wrong type of adventure for his group. By no means should all situations be simple and easy; what I mean is that the DM should allow the Paladin to find a way to meet the objectives of the adventure without violating his ethics. This is no different than the DM allowing the rougue of the group to find a way to to talk his way out of trouble rather than having no choice but to fight. Nor should the DM force a fighter only party into a trap where magic is the only answer. When the DM makes the game impossible for the players to play their characters in any manner other than the way the DM wants them to, it is no longer a game. The PCs are no longer creating a story of their own, they are acting out a pre-scripted story, which defeats the whole purpose of the game.
I guess the best way to avoid this problem is to have the DM, probably with the help of the players, spell out what exactly is a particular paladin's code of ethics, whether it is a standard thing like the Oath and the Measure of the Solamnic Knights, or if it is personal oaths that the paladin swore to his deity when he received the deity's favor. This equally applies to any other character that has a code of ethics of some sort: the exactlt rules need to be laid out ahead of time. If a question comes up, then the player has something to look to in order to resolve their quandry.
Again. would I ally with the illithids? Let's see what my code of ethics states. Hmmm, when I became a paladin, I swore that I would blah blah blah.... ok, here it is. "An Aggie doesn't lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do." Do the illithids do any of this? Yes? Then I cannot ally myself with them without violating my etics, not unless a higher authority directs me to do otherwise.
It is that simple.
If you want to play a character that sees things as nothing but shades of grey, then the Paladin is definately the wrong character class. Be a druid or something. They like to maintain the balance and stuff. Or just be a chaotic neutral rogue and do whatever pops into your head. Just don't play a paladin and give the rest of us paladins a bad name.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
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| Posted: 28-Feb-2002 21:08 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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What happens when that Higher power gives you a grey response like, 'do what needs to be done', And you have to use your judgement to make that call????
Sir Henry
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Ronin
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| Posted: 28-Feb-2002 21:16 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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Sounds like my deity would be testing me somehow. I would find out what *exactly* needed to be done, and then do it to the best of my abilities. I would think that if my deity gives that vague of a response, then the situation is not that critical, meaning that I can afford to look for a way to accomplish it without having to consort with evil to do it.
Maybe the deity is intending this as the first step in redeeming the evil illithids by forcing us to work together against a common foe. If that be the case, then I will lead by example and show that justice and good are the true paths to follow.
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
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| Posted: 01-Mar-2002 12:50 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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Very well put.
Of course the last time I made that assumtion. My deity took away my luck stone because I fought a treant. The treant was tring to kill me. And had already killed my friend. After many failed attemps to conmuncate with it. And was down to my last 24 HP. I finally had to defeat it.
The GM said. You are a good character and the treant is also good. so your deity passes judgement that you shopuld have found a diffrent way.
I still do not agree. But that is the way of the GODS.
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Sir Henry
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| Posted: 01-Mar-2002 15:58 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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What would your diety say if you did nothing while the Treant killed your friend, because you trying to find another way???
-Sir Henry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 01-Mar-2002 16:46 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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That GM sounds like an idiot...
why wouldn't someone be allowed to defend themselves?
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
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| Posted: 01-Mar-2002 19:04 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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An obvious idiot. One thing that gets me angry is piss poor DMing....
Sir HEnry, a DM for 25 years...
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Sir Henry
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AcidQueen
Capellan Confederation
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Joined: 22-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 02-Mar-2002 00:58 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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On 2002-03-01 19:04, Sir Henry wrote:
An obvious idiot. One thing that gets me angry is piss poor DMing.... |
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Amen, my brother, amen.
--Camille.
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What part of "LEAVE ME ALONE" is so hard to understand?
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
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| Posted: 02-Mar-2002 07:09 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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It's exactly scenarios like this that make it cheap insurance to always bash open chests.
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AcidQueen
Capellan Confederation
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| Posted: 02-Mar-2002 09:35 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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On 2002-03-02 07:09, Hardware wrote:
It's exactly scenarios like this that make it cheap insurance to always bash open chests. |
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You get smacked by two pseudopods from the mimic, take 2d12 damage, and please roll me initiative. BTW, you're now stuck to the mimic and get a -2 penalty to all your attack rolls.
--Camille.
(Hey, if a player's going to do something stupid then who am I to argue?)
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
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| Posted: 02-Mar-2002 09:41 Post subject: For all you D&D players, a conundrum. |
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Gas Spores, Contact traps with fire balls.. will get them out of that habit. Two or three 6D6 fireballs are an Object lesson that hard to ignore....
Sir HEnry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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