|
|
|
Mordel's Bar & Grill |
|
  |
» |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
 Posted: 21-Mar-2002 14:43 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
  |
|
Quote:
|
On 2002-03-21 13:30, Cadet wrote:
I don't want more mechs, but if I have to have them, then I want to buy a book and just not keep getting the same info over and over.
It wasn't the same with TRO 3057. They collected a handful of mechs that had been published over the years.
|
|
Dammit...I had a nice long list of stuff here and then this new system screwed it up...
Ok, suffice it to say that this TRO is longer than any other, especially once the rules info and history and such are removed from consideration...many of the other TROs have multiple examples or rehashed 'Mechs and vehicles (if you take out all the Clan 'Mechs in the 3058 TRO that were reprints, you have 4 left...and only 12 new Inner Sphere ones, if that, plus the new omnis, and it was only 190 pages long versus the 3067's 230 page length)...
Plus, there may be new artwork (don't quote me on that) and some mention of the new variants that will be appearing in the RS: 3067 book, as can be seen on the Master BV table in CBT's PDF files section...
So, what is the problem again?
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-03-21 14:48 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-03-21 14:55 ]
|
|
| Back to top |
 
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 14:50 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
Then we get games that we know in advance won't be supported. Aerotech, BattleTroops, BattleForce 1&2, BattleSpace... Occassionally we get a new stat or two. But nothing else to support it. There is no reason at all we should not have had record sheets for BattleSpace or Aerotech 2.
I'm just tired of the halfassed way the game is being run.
|
|
Hmm...so, RS: AeroTech2 (to be released this summer) doesn't count? 
Ruger
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 15:09 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2002-03-21 14:43, Ruger wrote:
Ok, suffice it to say that this TRO is longer than any other, especially once the rules info and history and such are removed from consideration...many of the other TROs have multiple examples or rehashed 'Mechs and vehicles (if you take out all the Clan 'Mechs in the 3058 TRO that were reprints, you have 4 left...and only 12 new Inner Sphere ones, if that, plus the new omnis, and it was only 190 pages long versus the 3067's 230 page length)...
2002-03-21 14:55 ]
|
|
The problem is a good chunck of the mechs in this TR are taken straight from the FMs...mechs that now no longer house specific...so what was the point of having the in the FMs if less the a year latter for some they in up in the TR? And so this one is longer...how many pages of FM mechs can be tossed to compare the new stuff to the other TRs that had new mechs?
I guess it comes down to some of us are tired of buying a book to only find out that the info is a repeat of something we already had...at this rate some of the FORGOTTEN mechs from some the other out of print stuff might see it into a TR...it would fit with idea of carrying the old over...
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 15:24 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
The problem is a good chunck of the mechs in this TR are taken straight from the FMs...mechs that now no longer house specific...so what was the point of having the in the FMs if less the a year latter for some they in up in the TR? And so this one is longer...how many pages of FM mechs can be tossed to compare the new stuff to the other TRs that had new mechs?
|
|
Ok, taking out the 'Mechs removes about 30 pages, and the WarShips another 30...maybe...leaving 150 to 160 or so pages of new material which compares favorably to most of the other TROs (once reprinted info is removed), especially considering we're getting 10 new Inner Sphere vehicles, 6 new Clan vehicles, 19 new Inner Sphere 'Mechs, 12 new Clan 'Mechs, 10 new Inner Sphere aerospace fighters, 6 new Clan fighters, 6 new Inner Sphere DropShips and 3 new Clan DropShips...all in one volume
Plus, as I said, we might get info on the new variants of the reprinted stuff (just glancing over the PDF file, I'm seeing at least one new variant for each machine)...but I don't know for sure...
Remember what I mentioned before about the 3058 TRO...if you take out the reprinted stuff, you have only around 100 or so pages of new material...and I consider that one to be the second best TRO ever...
Oh, and it's been 5 years since the FWLFM was released...
Ruger
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
Joined: 17-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 495
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 19:03 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
Hmm...so, RS: AeroTech2 (to be released this summer) doesn't count?
|
|
No it doesn't.
A) I have yet to see it.
B) Remember when FASA had their message board? I flat out asked if we would be getting record sheets for AeroTech 2 and Nystul said no.
We get these great expansions and then FASA just dropped them. And since it is fundamentally the same people in charge of FanPro, I have no faith in their abilities at all. These are the same people that drove FASA into the ground and so far, I haven't seen them do much to improve on that track record.
_________________
I'm not family friendly. That's why I don't post here.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 22:12 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Wow 5 years back for that one book, and the mechs in it I think made it into TR3060...wow another repeat...sounds like a sports team or two...while that is nice to know some of the info just came out in the last six months...nice to see I am going to be spending close to $20-$25 for something I already got for the same price 6 times over...
Explain to me again WHY the Clans need new mechs when they have Omni mechs?
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
|
|
| Back to top |
|
pinkfloyd214
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 14-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 141
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 22:17 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
thank you this is what iv'e been looking for
_________________
Click- tech is for sissies
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 22:23 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
Explain to me again WHY the Clans need new mechs when they have Omni mechs?
|
|
The sell more minis and TROs, of course.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 21-Mar-2002 22:34 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Damn! I hate it when you apply logic to this...to sell more minis and TROs...damn I forgot that part...
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
| Posted: 22-Mar-2002 00:57 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2002-03-21 19:03, Cadet wrote:
Quote:
|
Hmm...so, RS: AeroTech2 (to be released this summer) doesn't count?
|
|
No it doesn't.
A) I have yet to see it.
B) Remember when FASA had their message board? I flat out asked if we would be getting record sheets for AeroTech 2 and Nystul said no.
We get these great expansions and then FASA just dropped them. And since it is fundamentally the same people in charge of FanPro, I have no faith in their abilities at all. These are the same people that drove FASA into the ground and so far, I haven't seen them do much to improve on that track record.
|
|
Thank you cadet...I really appreciate that...considering I am in essence an employee of FanPro in a non-paid capacity right now as I help moderate the FanPro Classic BTech message board...that statement is really appreciated now...
Hmm...I guess events like Monte Diablo, and the opportunity for you the gamer to tell what you want in future sourcebooks means nothing...I guess all these novels that are still being published mean nothing either...I guess having a website that is actually regularly updated (with Randall giving a BattleChat just about each month, and taking the time to personally answer submitted questions) means nothing too...I guess having Iron Winds produce most of the old minis and have sculpters submit versions of ones that were never done (like the Cestus and Snake) means nothing as well...
Here...let me assure you that the RS: AeroTech2 book is, to my knowledge, still going to be produced...Randall has not informed us of any plans to the contrary on that fact...
If that's not enough, then I apologize...
And let me assure you on one other point...Nystul is, to my knowledge, no longer associated with the company (from what I recall, he got tired of having to deal with people constantly berating him)...and the people in charge seem to be, by referencing what I've mentioned above, to be very concerned with fan input and fan desires in what comes out now...
But please tell me...precisely what expansions have been dropped?
And plese don't include ones that have been updated to new editions...
Ruger
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 22-Mar-2002 01:12 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
You are missing the point Ruger, having Randall there to answer some questions is nice, but the fan input is limited to commenting on things ALREADY PLANNED. That doesn't really let us tell them what we think or what we think should be done, because they are already to ship or close to shipping the product and want to see if we will buy it.
If it was truly open to us telling them what we think of events or product then it might be different but it's not. There is nothing there for someone to say in the input section I think this should be done or that should be done and have FP answer that.
A lot of the suggestions to have two books for the Civil War was shot down for the reason is they can't do two books, what kind of crap is that? How can they not be able to do two books? The idea of a scenario pack was shot down, later it is posted on another board that FP thinks scenarios packs don't sell. I wonder where they got that idea from?
Running a scenario that is included in the storyline is fine, but will the outcome cause the end results of the story line to change? I doubt that very much.
It's great to know the minis are coming out, but that was a given since WK/FP need to make money off this.
What would be nice is if someone other then Randal would visit and comment and talk to us and let us know what is comming or going on then we would see more of the company then one person...
As for comments made by Nystul, well FP is going to have dispell them or ignore them...
_________________
Karagin
If you can strike few with many, you will thus minimize the number of those with whom you do battle.
[ This Message was edited by: Karagin on 2002-03-22 01:18 ]
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
| Posted: 22-Mar-2002 01:20 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2002-03-21 22:12, Karagin wrote:
Wow 5 years back for that one book, and the mechs in it I think made it into TR3060...wow another repeat...sounds like a sports team or two...while that is nice to know some of the info just came out in the last six months...nice to see I am going to be spending close to $20-$25 for something I already got for the same price 6 times over...
Explain to me again WHY the Clans need new mechs when they have Omni mechs?
|
|
No, they did NOT make it into the 3060 TRO...and you are getting a TRO's (according to the size of the 3025, 3026, 2750, 3050, 3055, 3058 and 3060 TROs (not including revised versions of those that have them), all of which the new material in the 3067 TRO compares favorably to) worth of material IN ADDITION to having all the old stuff put in one place, maybe with mention made of the whys and whatnots of the new variants listed on the Master BV table of each...I've already listed the numbers of new mecha...and those numbers compare favorably to all but perhaps the 3025 TRO of the above...
As for why the Clans need the new 'Mechs when they have omnis...omnis are mostly frontline, expensive machines (hell, just the omni nature increases the cost by a million or two...whether that's just in resources and maintainence time or not, the cost is still there, even for the Clans)...and not all Clans would use the same machines...that's like saying that all the Houses should use the same machines...they have some shared ones (the Unseen and the like) because they were developed by the Star League (these are akin to the original Omnis seen in the 3050 TRO, which are likely among the oldest Omnis in the Clans) and then ones that each individual Clan made to fill in gaps that the others didn't quite fit or that didn't fit a particular Clan's fighting style...ie, the Grendel rather than the Dragonfly...both are fast, but the latter is faster to the detriment of its armament...the Diamond Sharks prefer slightly more firepower, while retaining some speed...the Nova Cat is slower than the Timber Wolf, but packs a heftier punch while retaining much of the armor..etc....
Plus, of the new Clan designs found in the TRO, only one, the Crimson Langur, appears to be an omni, at least according to the Master BV table (I just took the time to look)...do you expect each Clan to field solely expensive and hard to maintain omnis, even in their garrison forces? Or would it make more sense for them to field their own individual types of second line BattleMechs?
Ruger
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 22-Mar-2002 01:29 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Given the nature of the omni's being MODULAR, the idea of having to need a whole new 45 ton omni do the job of the old one is crazy, what is the point having it modular if you come out with a whole new one to replace it?
The idea of the Clans having limited chassises but being modular seem to me to be a good idea since it cut down on the number of variants in that you had a basic chassise and a set number of configurations and each could be tailored as needed WITHOUT having to build a whole new mech.
Then poof out come dozen more omnis...some filling the same roles as the ones we saw in TRO 3050...
As for the number of second line mechs, those should be limited has well, since for the last oh say 100 to 150 years the omni has been the premier mech for them the number of second line mechs would not grow and I doubt you would see any new ones...they would be at the most all of the UNSEENs plus mechs like the Longbow, some of the older Battledroids, and the ones the Dragoons showed up with...with maybe some like we got in the TR3055, but it seems that the add water get mechs theory holds true for the Clans as well...
(Am going to kill this cat!!!!!!!)
They each would have the same kind, given that they too come from the star league, and given their nature of fighting for new tech etc...then the newer second line mechs, would end up in all the Clans as well by the time they came back to the Inner Sphere.
That is no different then House Stiener buying Wraiths from the FWL and sell House Laio Zeuses.
New mechs would happen but not as fast as we have seen...little know fact was that while the US Army wanted the M1 tank they felt Congrees would not give it to them do to the price...might have happen if Carter had won the election instead of Reagan...so they came up with an upgrade for the M60 tank that gave it a 120mm gun, and better Fire Control and a better engine, all just in case they didn't get their new toy...that is what I would see the Inner Sphere doing as whole planning for not getting the new, and thus still having something that is better then the current. The Clans would not have to worry about that to much since the modular nature of their mechs would mean they could place in new weapons and have a better mech or at least one that is able to preform better.
Mechs like the Super Nova are not Clan mechs to me. They are more of the Clans changing to be like the Inner Sphere...and if the case of the Jaguars running out of reasources is so true to justify the Proto-mechs, then aren't the other Clans facing the same problem?
_________________
Karagin
If you can strike few with many, you will thus minimize the number of those with whom you do battle.
[ This Message was edited by: Karagin on 2002-03-22 01:38 ]
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
| Posted: 22-Mar-2002 01:43 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2002-03-22 01:12, Karagin wrote:
You are missing the point Ruger, having Randall there to answer some questions is nice, but the fan input is limited to commenting on things ALREADY PLANNED. That doesn't really let us tell them what we think or what we think should be done, because they are already to ship or close to shipping the product and want to see if we will buy it.
|
|
Yes, it is limited to things already planned because they know they will be doing that item...is not the appearance of the house books on pdf enough to be proof that they aren't ignoring what fans want (we've been calling for reprints of these things for years...but I'd have to agree that the market for them wouldn't be enough to make large, or even small, printings of them affordable as such...the downloads are a nice compromise)? Is not the opportunity to have a say in what should be in a book, planned or not, something? Did FASA ever truly do this to the extent that FanPro is doing?
Quote:
|
If it was truly open to us telling them what we think of events or product then it might be different but it's not. There is nothing there for someone to say in the input section I think this should be done or that should be done and have FP answer that.
|
|
And do you realize why? It's hard enough to keep up with all the stuff that gets posted anyways...to have that board cluttered by this demand or that request would make it virtually impossible to read...and very time consuming...still...I believe that some requests (as seen by the House books, as mentioned above) are considered, and acted upon...that's one of the reasons that the Fan Input board was included for instance...
Quote:
|
A lot of the suggestions to have two books for the Civil War was shot down for the reason is they can't do two books, what kind of crap is that? How can they not be able to do two books? The idea of a scenario pack was shot down, later it is posted on another board that FP thinks scenarios packs don't sell. I wonder where they got that idea from?
|
|
Do you realize how expensive it can be to make these kinds of books? This is a gaming company we're talking about here, not a corporation like Microsoft...the funds aren't there to do everything, so what can be done is done...FASA got into financial trouble in the first place because they tried to do too much at once...and scenario packs are generally the worst sellers, by my understanding...that's not to say something may change in the future, but right now, it wouldn't be feasible with the other planned products...
And the reason two books won't be done is one of cost...sure, two books could probably be made, but the cost would be higher...say $15 each for two books, rather than say $20 or $25 for the one, because although the page count is similar, there has to be a new cover done (meaning the artist has to be paid twice as much), the binders have to be twice as much, etc....it's just not cost effective...
Besides...sheesh...people were once complaining that too much was coming out...now you want more...
Quote:
|
Running a scenario that is included in the storyline is fine, but will the outcome cause the end results of the story line to change? I doubt that very much.
|
|
Of course it won't...these story lines are planned out long in advance...to have to go back and change alot of it would cost ALOT of money and man hours (which is also money)...but, as in the case of Monte Diablo, it matters for that ONE WORLD...
Think about it...those who fought in that battle will have a place in the sourcebook because of it...
Quote:
|
It's great to know the minis are coming out, but that was a given since WK/FP need to make money off this.
|
|
Yes...but they didn't have to consider going back and making minis from TROs that are almost a decade old either did they?
Hmm...seems that fan desires have made their presence felt there, doesn't it?
Quote:
|
What would be nice is if someone other then Randal would visit and comment and talk to us and let us know what is comming or going on then we would see more of the company then one person...
|
|
True...but he is pretty much their spokesman at the moment...maybe once things settle down, something like this can take place...
Quote:
|
As for comments made by Nystul, well FP is going to have dispell them or ignore them...
_________________
Karagin
|
|
And, in the case of AeroTech 2 record sheets, I think they are doing that...other comments will have to be taken one at a time as they can be...
Seems he also made the comment at one time that the Unseen wouldn't be back...well, they are getting updated to newer tech and will be in the revised random 'Mech tables shortly, won't they? Perhaps they haven't been redrawn, but it does appear that FanPro is listening to fans' desires to the extent they are able to once again, eh?
Ruger
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
|
| Posted: 22-Mar-2002 02:02 Post subject: Tro 3067 teaser |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2002-03-22 01:29, Karagin wrote:
Given the nature of the omni's being MODULAR, the idea of having to need a whole new 45 ton omni do the job of the old one is crazy, what is the point having it modular if you come out with a whole new one to replace it?
|
|
The engine isn't modular...the armor isn't modular, MASC isn't modular, etc...
You'll notice that most of the new omnis created were created around changes like these...
Quote:
|
The idea of the Clans having limited chassises but being modular seem to me to be a good idea since it cut down on the number of variants in that you had a basic chassise and a set number of configurations and each could be tailored as needed WITHOUT having to build a whole new mech.
|
|
And while in their homeworlds, these worked...the Inner Sphere showed them that their machines sometimes lacked something, and they designed new ones to make up for it...Or, like I said, because one Clan saw something in a design that didn't fit their criteria for their omnis (like the Blood Spirit's Stooping Hawk omni was made because they didn't want to use the expensive, resource consuming and maintainence heavy XL engine)...
Quote:
|
Then poof out come dozen more omnis...some filling the same roles as the ones we saw in TRO 3050...
|
|
But not in the same way...they were slightly different to fit a particular Clan's needs...as I've said...
Quote:
|
As for the number of second line mechs, those should be limited has well, since for the last oh say 100 to 150 years the omni has been the premier mech for them the number of second line mechs would not grow and I doubt you would see any new ones...they would be at the most all of the UNSEENs plus mechs like the Longbow, some of the older Battledroids, and the ones the Dragoons showed up with...with maybe some like we got in the TR3055, but it seems that the add water get mechs theory holds true for the Clans as well...
(Am going to kill this cat!!!!!!!)
They each would have the same kind, given that they too come from the star league, and given their nature of fighting for new tech etc...then the newer second line mechs, would end up in all the Clans as well by the time they came back to the Inner Sphere.
|
|
I see...so, using that logic, all planes used in the world should be F-5s and F-4s or F-15s, since the US made them long ago, and has now sold them to others...and yet, they are not...you also see British designs, Russian designs, German designs, French designs, Chinese designs and homegrown designs...
Funny that...
Quote:
|
That is no different then House Stiener buying Wraiths from the FWL and sell House Laio Zeuses.
|
|
Far as I know, neither of these ideas take place...
And it's Steiner, not Stiener... 
Quote:
|
New mechs would happen but not as fast as we have seen...little know fact was that while the US Army wanted the M1 tank they felt Congrees would not give it to them do to the price...might have happen if Carter had won the election instead of Reagan...so they came up with an upgrade for the M60 tank that gave it a 120mm gun, and better Fire Control and a better engine, all just in case they didn't get their new toy...that is what I would see the Inner Sphere doing as whole planning for not getting the new, and thus still having something that is better then the current. The Clans would not have to worry about that to much since the modular nature of their mechs would mean they could place in new weapons and have a better mech or at least one that is able to preform better.
|
|
So, we shouldn't have seen all the fighters and tanks we did during WW2? Or Korea? Or Vietnam? And let's not get started on ship types...
Oh...ok...
You seem to forget that the times are deceptive in some cases...those "new" 'Mechs you see in say the 3060 TRO? They are centuries old designs made when the tech just started coming up...and before omnis...some of the machines we see, as shown by the 3060 Ursus and the 3067 Spirit, are, of course, completely new designs, but these are made in the Inner Sphere, in former Inner Sphere factories, most likely by former Spheroids that are still learning the Clan tech...easier to adjust weapons and armor than it is to create entirely new omnis in some cases...
Quote:
|
Mechs like the Super Nova are not Clan mechs to me. They are more of the Clans changing to be like the Inner Sphere...and if the case of the Jaguars running out of reasources is so true to justify the Proto-mechs, then aren't the other Clans facing the same problem?
|
|
Perhaps, perhaps not...the Jags were never noted for being careful in their resource allocation, nor for their exploratory bent...perhaps they didn't have the resources simply because they didn't LOOK for them...and by the time they started, all the nearby stuff had been taken by the other Clans...
Ruger
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| |
» |
All times are GMT-04:00 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
