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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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 Posted: 27-Feb-2008 06:46 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Anyone had a chance to see it already? What happened with the unseens?
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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wolf
Clan Wolf
Point Commander
Joined: 17-Sep-2005 00:00
Posts: 12
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| Posted: 27-Feb-2008 22:03 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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| The usual info for each mech; overview, capabilities, deployment, variants, and notable mechwarriors but the only have a small picture of the phoenix version in the upper left hand corner of the page. Each one is on a single page.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Feb-2008 22:10 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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There won't be any new art work for them for this TRO. TPTB seem to be under the impression that it will cause the die hards to be upset or something like that, plus they said it would cost to much to do as well...funny thing here the die hards are the ones asking for new artwork for the 3025 versions of the unseen, funny how that is now an issue. Oh well...something is better then nothing.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Feb-2008 02:40 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Awww, that sucks...
Anyone considered that it would be a new line of minis, ...? (I think the diehards would buy them) I'm not sure whether the artwork issues extended to the minis as well, but it would be a good thing for overall integrity IMO.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 17-Mar-2008 13:35 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Chiming in with possible old news, seeing as this topic is 2 weeks old.
1) The unseen issued definitely does extend to the models. They are just as unseen as the printed art.
2) TRO:3039 works with a very, very clever conceit: It pretends that the unseen are not unseen at all. Its reason for separating them from the others and providing (tiny) pics of the Phoenix variants (in silhouette) is: The TRO is printed in 3070, in-universe Character. The editor (A. Focht) points out that by 3070, you'd mostly encounter the Phoenix versions. The supplied data on the old unseens is merely for historical understanding.
I find this a very clever reasoning. Of course, it doesn't change a thing for today's fan and gamer. Well, no, it does confirm one thing:
The unseen art is still the official art for the 3025 (and 3050) 'mechs. It simply won't be printed or manufactured in model form.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 17-Mar-2008 14:16 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Well, I think that by making new art to replace the old they could make some additional money. Using reseens to play succession wars scenarios could quickly become common if the unseen minis become unavailable. It just saddens me that there are so many 'Mechs that lack official art representation.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Mar-2008 15:49 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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The odd part about this is folks have pointed that out to TPTB, and yet they seem to think it would cost more and thus isn't worth it...
Since I was able to get a copy, BOOK kind, noted a few things:
Fluff for the 3025 mechs and vehicles isn't a reprint of the older stuff, which is good and bad.
Good in that it brings them forward, bad in that they have lost a lot of the flavor text and color that they once had, now they are nothing special when compared to the new mechs, in other words they lost their history.
Second point, missing mechs, no 3025 versions of the Hoplite, Shogun, Annihilator or Imp, the watered down Mercury is missing as well. I am sure that there are a couple of others that not there that I have missed but these are the ones that stood out.
I still think they could have done up a new TRO just for the 3039 war stuff, which could have had the new weapons from the TW/TM books, all the experimental stuff, thus giving folks the chance to fight the war with the toys that were around at the time...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 17-Mar-2008 16:55 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Well, there are lots of easter eggs for the old timers that do know the old fluff.
The new text really does solve some of the mysteries in (the old) TRO 3050, such as the Charger becoming Kurita, etc.
Of course, one asks what TPTB were smoking to turn the Centurion into a pure Davion 'mech.... Same thing happened for one or five vehicles.
Now, on the other hand, the missing 'mechs: well, the Dragoons' 'mechs weren't included in this one (with the exception of the MAD-II on account of being a Phoenix 'mech). The Star League 'mechs were. And the Flea, Hornet and Falcon count as being SL.
That the Mercury, Exterminator and Crockett were dropped to make place for those three is a real service, IMO. I never liked the lvl1 Mercury - what was the Locust 1E for, after all? And it kinda makes sense calling this design extinct for the duration of the SW, it being the progenitor of the Omni and all. As far as the Exterminator and Crockett are concerned, these posed major headaches in continuity. The Exterminator's abilities were previously mostly based in fluff, a lvl1 variant makes no sense whatsoever (but notice that the introductory text does make a note of the limited Kallon production run of the lvl1 variant in the early 3000s - if you dig up the stats, it'll still be canon *and* supported by fluff). The Crockett is the biggest disaster. Simply, because the lvl1 variant diverges so bloody far from the Drac Katana - how can one explain that away? The Crockett is now a 'mech that is extinct for the SW, full stop.
BTW, I mus really commend TPTB for the actual content of the SL section. They make a fairly convincing effort at explaining the survival and continued use of the designs, while also making battlefield surprise at the deployment of these beasts conceivable. And they clearly state that this is the definitive info on them, thus erasing the half-assed pseudo-explanations of the travesty that is TRO:3025R. I believe we had discussions about this on this board years ago; this is satisfying closure.
Finally, for all of us who still think in lvl1 terms: This book includes one design, the Daboku (3039 Mauler) that unaplogetically features CASE. CASE was apparently introduced in 3036 (making the Shogun E a problem). It is still the equivalent of lvl2 (if you look at the tech levels in TM).
However, one other piece of equipment is now officially considered "lvl1" - the one-shot missile launchers. The Planetlifter gunship carries a OS-SRM6 - which made me look this up in the TM. And it is true: it is both of appropriate tech level (D) and available throughout all the ages. Ok, the OS systems are nigh on useless, but I thought you might find this tidbit interesting.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Mar-2008 22:37 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Kurtia had Chargers, they wanted Thugs...ended up with a new mech...how again does this explain their Chargers?
Leaving out mechs that were around for the fighting in the eras before 3039 and during the time frame of the TRO, means some folks won't know about these mechs and thus lose out on using them or they will only think of them as mechs for the Clan time frame which is what TRO 3050 is suppose to cover. And I am sorry but I don't see lances of Thugs or Thorns running around, so leaving out the Crockett and the others should have never happen. They should have been there.
As for levels, we don't have them any more, so the OS weapons are there for the fun of it, though they do work well for vehicles.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 18-Mar-2008 03:41 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Hm, I'm not here to justify myself for reciting what's in the TRO. And the TRO has a certain advantage: if it states that something happened....it did. New canon overrules old canon. The TRO simply retcons all those things that didn't make sense in the past (real-life) decades.
It also goes through the effort of specifically mentioning (and giving an alibi reason for) the absence of the Mercury, Exterminator and Crockett, so it's not like they were trying to hide them.
The same cannot be said for the Firefly, Hoplite and Shogun (which were Star League designs - the Annihilator and Imp were not). However, those were in 3050U (including a mention of their lvl1....er SW-era variants). Though it wasn't stated anywhere, I am willing to bet that their absence is due to them being deployed *exclusively* by WD at that point of time.
The overruling reason for excluding a certain amount of designs was most likely the pure size of this monster volume.
Now again, I am not arguing with you. We have to live with this book as it is. Could it have been improved, IMO? Oh, yes! Can I live with it? Hell yes!
In fact, it is definitely a lot better than I'd feared...
...and still of higher quality than I'd actually hoped.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Mar-2008 12:18 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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Retcon of dates and fixing where something is made or not made is one thing, complete retconning of who is using something or what is usable isn't.
New Canon should NOT over rule old, if that is the case then why not go back and fix everything that doesn't show the Jihad being planned way back when, since they (TPTB) claim it was always in the works...once you open the door to retcons, you open the whole game up to be revamped from the start and thus cause more issues then you actually fix.
Okay so they mentioned the level 1 variants in the 3050/55 TRO Upgrades...great, but those books have nothing to do with the time frame of the 3039 era, those are post War of 3039, so the missing mechs should have been in this book in my opinion.
I know you are not arguing with me, we are talking about the book and what could or could not have been to make it better.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 07-Apr-2008 22:15 Post subject: 3039 TRO (looking for info) |
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As an old school guy with all original TRO and only one of the updated or revised kind I was OK with it. I do not think the 3025 Mechs were exact reprints, and I mean other than the noteable warriors.
But for a new playet to the game and genre, great. So it gives chance to teach the old ways and then unleash the toys.
Willing to support whom ever is in charge for CBT since I do not buy the Jihad and other stuff any more. I have just fallen out of touch with the direction of the game.
AWAD- Who just restarted another campaign, 3047, Steiner, Right on the FRR boarder near Star's End
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