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Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon.
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Stinger
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PostPosted: 21-Jul-2005 19:32    Post subject: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

I have been playing with this one for quite a while and so far have really liked the idea. I cant remember if I posted this before so I figured I would (re)post it with the new numbers incase I hadent already. This weapon evolved from wanting to see a decent machine gun type for lighter mechs. Im hopeing this isnt over kill, but give me some input. I tried to make it believable and somewhat realistic for battletech purposes.


Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity Cannon.
After a extended trip to Terra the well known Doctor Banzai and his team came back with the blue prints for a interesting new design for a cannon. Based on the ancient Avenger cannon mounted in the old Terra A-10 Warthog ground attack aircraft, they set to work recreating it for battlemech, vehicle and Aerospace use.


Avenger Mk2 HVC
Weight: 4.5 tons
Range: 6-12-18
Damage: (5) 15* (30)
Heat: (6) 12* (24)
Ammo/ton: 100
Weapon BV: 310
Weapon V: 79
Ammo Value: 39
Cost/ammo: 175,000 / 12,000

Game notes.
the unique design of the weapon allows for a higher rate of fire. The weapon has the ability to alter its firing modes, it can so with a short burst that can cause 5 points of damage (roll for locations like normal) it can also do a standard burst of up to 15 (5 points per location) or it can double its rate firing doing upto 30 points per salvo. To determin how many groups hit consult the srm 6 table and roll to hit as you would if firing a srm 6 (note if firing a short burst roll to hit as normal, on a standard burst of 15 consult the missle table for a flight of 3 missles (pg31 in the master rules book) multiply damage by 5 and apply any damage in groups of 5 normally.

Ammo:
Ammo is done in rounds of 100. It also has one major drawback in that it contains so many rounds that CASE (both 1 and 2) are useless when a ammo bin is hit. Half ton units are avaliable but the same restriction on case applies.

Heat:
The weapon produces 12 points of heat ever time a standard round of 15 points is fired. when it is doubled it produces 24 points of heat. on short bursts of 5 it produces 6 points of waste heate.

If the weapon is hit with any damage it is considered destroyed. There is also a chance that the damage done has the chance to set off the ammo (roll 2d6 10 plus it goes off), if the ammo does cook off apply the current firing mode damage to the internal structure (example: if a 5 point short burst is fired that round when the weapon is hit and the ammo cooks off then apply 5 points of damage to the internal structure and calulate damage normally).

The nature of the weapon does give a -1 to hit but it can not be combined with a targeting computer of any kind.

Due to the heavy vibration caused by the weapon the following rules apply to creation. Any light or medium unit (mech, vehicle, or aerospace) may only mount 1 Avenger. Heavy and assult units may mount no more than 2.

Ok I hope this isnt overkill since damageis rolled on the lrm chart and applied in groups of 5, I think it balances it fairly well. Anyway let me know what you think. My biggest fear is that it seems to have a lot of record keeping to it.


And here is a mech example to go along with the weapon.



BattleMech Technical Readout
Custom* Weapons

Type/Model: Prototype mech Mk1
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3058
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design

Mass: 30 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 180 Light Fusion
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: 6 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
1 Avenger Mk2 HVC*
2 Medium Lasers
1 Guardian ECM
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
A mech that is testing the new Avenger Mk2 High-Velicity Cannon.

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Prototype mech Mk1
Mass: 30 tons

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 51 pts Endo Steel 14 1.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine: 180 Light Fusion 10 5.50
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 9 .00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 LT, 1 RT)
Gyro: 4 2.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 96 pts Standard 0 6.00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 10 13
Center Torso (Rear): 4
L/R Side Torso: 7 10/10
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 3/3
L/R Arm: 5 9/9
L/R Leg: 7 13/13

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Avenger Mk2 HVC* RA 12 100 6 5.50
(Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
1 Guardian ECM LT 0 2 1.50
6 Standard Jump Jets: 6 3.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 18 74 30.00
Crits & Tons Left: 4 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 3,816,540 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,294
Cost per BV: 2,949.41
Weapon Value: 433 / 433 (Ratio = .33 / .33)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 22; MRDmg = 13; LRDmg = 5
BattleForce2: MP: 6J, Armor/Structure: 2/2
Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/2, Overheat: 0
Class: ML; Point Value: 13
Specials: ecm



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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Delta
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PostPosted: 22-Jul-2005 08:58    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Overkill indeed. 30 dmg!?! A lot of mechs dont carry that capacity in their alpha strike...



Heres an idea- make it an essentally long ranged heavy mg that can double its rate of fire.
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Stinger
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PostPosted: 23-Jul-2005 00:54    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

its only going to do 30 damage if that rate of fire is chosen. And then since your rolling on the Missle table you still have to roll 10+ (or is it 11?) to get all 6 groupings of 5 to hit. it essentially does less damage then a ultra ac 20 but has a better range and worse heat (12 for a standard rate versus the 14 for the double rate of fire on the ac. 24 points of heat for the Avenger when it is fired at a double rate.)


Note: I forgot to add in the ammo consumption.

If a Short burst is selected it uses one round of ammo.

If a standard burst is fired it uses 3 rounds.

and if a double burst is fired it uses 6 rounds.




More comments everyone Im curious what people think. And I noticed that it seems to be written in typical game jargon (hard to read and even worse to understand)


[ This Message was edited by: Stinger on 2005-07-23 00:59 ]
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Stinger
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Sleeping Dragon
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PostPosted: 23-Jul-2005 05:43    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

I decided to compare it with standard RAC/5, these weapons seem to be close to each other.

Quote:

On 2005-07-21 19:32, Stinger wrote:
I have been playing with this one for quite a while and so far have really liked the idea. I cant remember if I posted this before so I figured I would (re)post it with the new numbers incase I hadent already. This weapon evolved from wanting to see a decent machine gun type for lighter mechs. Im hopeing this isnt over kill, but give me some input. I tried to make it believable and somewhat realistic for battletech purposes.


Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity Cannon.
After a extended trip to Terra the well known Doctor Banzai and his team came back with the blue prints for a interesting new design for a cannon. Based on the ancient Avenger cannon mounted in the old Terra A-10 Warthog ground attack aircraft, they set to work recreating it for battlemech, vehicle and Aerospace use.

Avenger Mk2 HVC
Weight: 4.5 tons



Weights less than half.

Quote:

Range: 6-12-18



Range is much better.

Quote:

Damage: (5) 15* (30)



Damage is similar to RAC, grouping too.

Quote:

Heat: (6) 12* (24)



Produces quadruple heat (not too much when you look on RAC and it's DHS era).

Quote:

Ammo/ton: 100



Much more ammo per ton.

Quote:

Weapon BV: 310
Weapon V: 79
Ammo Value: 39
Cost/ammo: 175,000 / 12,000



I don't know much about these calculations so no comments.

Quote:

Game notes.
the unique design of the weapon allows for a higher rate of fire. The weapon has the ability to alter its firing modes, it can so with a short burst that can cause 5 points of damage (roll for locations like normal) it can also do a standard burst of up to 15 (5 points per location) or it can double its rate firing doing upto 30 points per salvo. To determin how many groups hit consult the srm 6 table and roll to hit as you would if firing a srm 6 (note if firing a short burst roll to hit as normal, on a standard burst of 15 consult the missle table for a flight of 3 missles (pg31 in the master rules book) multiply damage by 5 and apply any damage in groups of 5 normally.



Similar to RAC?

Quote:

Ammo:
Ammo is done in rounds of 100. It also has one major drawback in that it contains so many rounds that CASE (both 1 and 2) are useless when a ammo bin is hit. Half ton units are avaliable but the same restriction on case applies.



First major drawback.

Quote:

Heat:
The weapon produces 12 points of heat ever time a standard round of 15 points is fired. when it is doubled it produces 24 points of heat. on short bursts of 5 it produces 6 points of waste heate.

If the weapon is hit with any damage it is considered destroyed. There is also a chance that the damage done has the chance to set off the ammo (roll 2d6 10 plus it goes off), if the ammo does cook off apply the current firing mode damage to the internal structure (example: if a 5 point short burst is fired that round when the weapon is hit and the ammo cooks off then apply 5 points of damage to the internal structure and calulate damage normally).



Not so dangerous, if CASE doesn't protect the ammo bins it can at least protect the HVAC. Second drawback.

Quote:

The nature of the weapon does give a -1 to hit but it can not be combined with a targeting computer of any kind.



Due to vibrations I would expect +1, at least it cannot have the TC.

Quote:

Due to the heavy vibration caused by the weapon the following rules apply to creation. Any light or medium unit (mech, vehicle, or aerospace) may only mount 1 Avenger. Heavy and assult units may mount no more than 2.



That doesn't hinder you too much, most units will find one of these to be serious threat.

Quote:

Ok I hope this isnt overkill since damageis rolled on the lrm chart and applied in groups of 5, I think it balances it fairly well. Anyway let me know what you think. My biggest fear is that it seems to have a lot of record keeping to it.



Not too much, with only one or two per mech.

Quote:

And here is a mech example to go along with the weapon.



BattleMech Technical Readout
Custom* Weapons

Type/Model: Prototype mech Mk1
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3058
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design

Mass: 30 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 180 Light Fusion
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: 6 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
1 Avenger Mk2 HVC*
2 Medium Lasers
1 Guardian ECM
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
A mech that is testing the new Avenger Mk2 High-Velicity Cannon.

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Prototype mech Mk1
Mass: 30 tons

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 51 pts Endo Steel 14 1.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine: 180 Light Fusion 10 5.50
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 9 .00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 LT, 1 RT)
Gyro: 4 2.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 96 pts Standard 0 6.00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 10 13
Center Torso (Rear): 4
L/R Side Torso: 7 10/10
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 3/3
L/R Arm: 5 9/9
L/R Leg: 7 13/13

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Avenger Mk2 HVC* RA 12 100 6 5.50
(Ammo Locations: 1 RT)
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
1 Guardian ECM LT 0 2 1.50
6 Standard Jump Jets: 6 3.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 CT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 18 74 30.00
Crits & Tons Left: 4 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 3,816,540 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,294
Cost per BV: 2,949.41
Weapon Value: 433 / 433 (Ratio = .33 / .33)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 22; MRDmg = 13; LRDmg = 5
BattleForce2: MP: 6J, Armor/Structure: 2/2
Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/2, Overheat: 0
Class: ML; Point Value: 13
Specials: ecm




Overall, too strong. Maybe increasing range, decreasing heat and damage would turn it to RAC/1, ranged crit. seeker. Replacing the explosive drawbacks (and allowing to mount as many as you wish) with jamming typical for rapid-fire guns in BT would be just cosmetic change.

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Stinger
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PostPosted: 23-Jul-2005 09:33    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dang it forgot about Jamming. on a roll of 2 it jams requiring a tech to clear the jam. When fired in Standard or double burst only (15 or 30).

With the minus one it was kind of added in there as a wonder how this would work. I was also thinking that with tracer rounds it would hlep to aim but I think that helps it to much, and got to thinking a +1 or even 2 would be suited a bit better for the weapon though.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ammo/ton: 100


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Much more ammo per ton.




Yeah I forgot to add in ammo consumption. it uses 1 - 3 - 6 rounds of ammo when fired in sort standard and double purst. I think the ammo may get cut down a bit though I was thinking to 30 rounds the 100 is a bit excessive. that would only give it 5 rounds of fire if fired at a double burst every round, 10 rounds if fired at a standard burst, or 30 rounds if fired at the short burst.


(side Note: Never liked the RAC's so I guess this could be seen as a replacement or alternate version of them.)


[ This Message was edited by: Stinger on 2005-07-23 09:54 ]
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
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PostPosted: 23-Jul-2005 13:48    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

AC/5 do the same damage over the same range (and they have min. range) and have only 20 shots per ton of ammo, the ammo should be reduced a lot (or damage).

To tracer rounds, they may decrease the damage and in BT it's usable only in night-time battles.

What's so bad on RACs? (yeah, they are Davion only, can be equipped with TC and can un-jam (Why RAC can do it and UAC can't?)).

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PostPosted: 23-Jul-2005 22:53    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:
What's so bad on RACs? (yeah, they are Davion only, can be equipped with TC and can un-jam (Why RAC can do it and UAC can't?)).



You just named every reason I dont like the Rac. It certinly seems overpowered to me. with the exception of the Davion part . (Ex Davion here).


----------------------------------------------------------

Ok here is the rewrite I removed the double rate fo fire so it can now do 18 points total, in 3 groups of 6. I also removed the short burst and just gave it one firing mode. I upped the heat to 16 and lowered the ammo to 20.


On 2005-07-21 19:32, Stinger wrote:
Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity Cannon.
After a extended trip to Terra the well known Doctor Banzai and his team came back with the blue prints for a interesting new design for a cannon. Based on the ancient Avenger cannon mounted in the old Terra A-10 Warthog ground attack aircraft, they set to work recreating it for battlemech, vehicle and Aerospace use.


Avenger Mk2 HVC
Weight: 4.5 tons
Range: 6-12-18
Damage: 18
Heat: 16
Ammo/ton: 100
Weapon BV: 310
Weapon V: 79
Ammo Value: 39
Cost/ammo: 175,000 / 12,000

Game notes.
The unique design of the weapon allows for a higher rate of fire. The Avenger does 18 points per salvo that is broken up into groups of 6 point clusters. consult the missle table for a flight of 3 missles (pg31 in the master rules book) multiply damage by 6 and apply any damage in groups of 6 points normally.

Ammo:
The Ammo bin holds 20 rounds. It also has one major drawback in that it contains so many rounds that CASE (both 1 and 2) are useless when a ammo bin is hit.

Heat:
The Avenger produces 16 points of waste heat.


If the weapon is hit with any damage it is considered destroyed. Due to the heavy vibration caused by the weapon the following rules apply to creation. Any light or medium unit (mech, vehicle, or aerospace) may only mount 1 Avenger. Heavy and assult units may mount no more than 2. The heavy vibration also causes troubles with aiming. Add +1 to all to hit rolls. the weapon may not be combined with any targeting computer.

----------------------------------------------------------



[ This Message was edited by: Stinger on 2005-07-23 23:05 ]
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
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PostPosted: 24-Jul-2005 07:07    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

This seems good, but the heat is really high if the AC/10 produces 3 per shot than I would take it as base (waste heat is produced by rapid fire technically it's AC/6), so for 3 shots 9 heat points?

Ammo consumption - each use consumes one shot or three? If only one than case-less ammo can be used to justify the CASE ban (and that so many rounds can be fitted to 1t of ammo)

Can it jam?

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PostPosted: 25-Jul-2005 01:05    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2005-07-24 07:07, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
This seems good, but the heat is really high if the AC/10 produces 3 per shot than I would take it as base (waste heat is produced by rapid fire technically it's AC/6), so for 3 shots 9 heat points?

Ammo consumption - each use consumes one shot or three? If only one than case-less ammo can be used to justify the CASE ban (and that so many rounds can be fitted to 1t of ammo)

Can it jam?



Well this does do 8 points more, and weighs alot less. so I figured that the extra heat helped to balance it a bit better. its also based very heavily off of the Avenger mounted in the A-10 Warthog (its ammo bin holds 3000 rounds and has alternate firing modes.) Figure for fluff reasons it is a 30MM cannon and the ammo bin contains some 2000 rounds and fires off bursts of 100 rounds every timie the trigger is pulled.

Should only use 1 round per firing (changed it so the other modes dont exsist anymore just to confusing). so it actually has the same size bin as a AC5.

Yeah must have nuked that part of the rewrite. it jams on a roll of 2. but needs a Tech to unjam. so if it jams it is usless till fixed.

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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
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PostPosted: 26-Jul-2005 05:15    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Yup, I thought that's whole salvo (AC/5 officially fires short bursts too, doesn't it) I just wanted to know if it's like with RAC ammo consumption.

Tried the weapon in action?

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PostPosted: 26-Jul-2005 16:06    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Not this version yet. I did try the first run of this weapon. about 5 rounds into it I realized it was pretty munchy, the original had 5 firing modes and 2500 rounds, could fire a burst of 50 - 75 - 100 - 125 - 150, It used that many rounds every time it fired as well. It had the chance to melt the barrel if you fired any thing over 100 rounds for 2 rounds in a row. But I had an assult fighting a company and it took out the entire company. So I reworked it. then it got reworked again into the original that I posted here recentely. Now its at a point that I think I really like it. it fits into the battle tech universe very well now.

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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
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PostPosted: 27-Jul-2005 09:07    Post subject: RE: Avenger Mk2 High-Velocity cannon. Reply to topic Reply with quote

Yes, it seems to fit well.

Only one thing troubles me a little, it has comparable damage and heat to clan heavy laser or ER PPC (weight too, if you calculate it with some ammo), maybe increasing the weight a little, but it's already fine. These cosmetic changes should be done after testing it.

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