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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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 Posted: 14-May-2004 06:16 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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So we are talking semantics now??? eh, Chihawk?
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 09:19 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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On 2004-05-14 00:26, Vagabond wrote:
IS PPC
dmg: 10
heat: 10
rng: 6/12/18
min: 3
ton: 7
crit: 3
Cl LPL
dmg: 10
heat: 10
rng: 6/14/20
min: 0
ton: 6
crit: 2
bonus: -2 to hit
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Yeap clan technology is badassed and they have two PPCs ... the large pulse laser and the ERPPC 
So are you saying you dislike all clan technology?
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 09:54 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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Some of us who have played for a long time get bored with the munchiness of Clan tech. If you always hit your opponent and your opponent always hits you, were is the fun in that? In the Victor vs Zues fight Seraph and I just had, it was almost 10 rounds into the battle before we even hit each other. 6 rounds in we were firing. It adds more drama that way IMHO.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 10:51 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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On 2004-05-14 09:54, Oafman wrote:
Some of us who have played for a long time get bored with the munchiness of Clan tech. If you always hit your opponent and your opponent always hits you, were is the fun in that? In the Victor vs Zues fight Seraph and I just had, it was almost 10 rounds into the battle before we even hit each other. 6 rounds in we were firing. It adds more drama that way IMHO.
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I understand. I am NOT an "old-school" player by any means so I probably can't fully appreciate some of the feelings of betrayal some old players feel when new things are released by a company that completely subverts the older things they used ... however I do have to give FASA props to some extent that they never really completely invalidated all of the old technology. I mean lets ignore clan technology since by design it is meant to simply be better ... just looking at IS technology.
I will take a PPC over an ERPPC on 9/10 mechs ... and to be honest if it is a ground up custom design I can't come up with a situation where I'd use an ERPPC ever ...
I will take a medium laser over an ER or Pulse at least 6/10 times. There are situations where an ER or a Pulse are superior but the versatility and heat efficiency of the basic Medium Laser is undeniable ... and when you factor in toys like a targetting computer or C3 your basic medium lasers become truly sick.
I think the Large Laser is simply awesome. Often overlooked for PPC's ... you get a weapon that has a range of 15 (pretty good by IS standards) and works great in close as well. Unlike most PPC mechs who basically turn off their PPCs in close ... the Large laser is hands down the best energy weapon for a medium-short range mech. Also at 2 tons and 1 less crit than a PPC it is much easier to put on most mechs and fits easier into a Targetting Computer mech.
Also again the ER large laser and the Large pulse laser are basically worthless on 95% of the mech I would make. One is insanely heat inefficient (12 heat for 8 ... just get a PPC) and you can replace the other with 3 regular medium lasers and have just as much chance to do 1 more point of damage (10 as opposed to the LPL's 9) for 1 less point of heat (9 vs the LPL's 10) for one more crit (3 vs 2) but 4 tons less ...
When it comes to small lasers if you are making a small laser boat then the standard Small laser is hands down superior. However most small lasers are usually used just to fill that last .5 tons ... and then it is a toss up to go with the ER or the regular one. I have to admit I usually go with the ER myself but 1 heat for 3 damage is enticing. As for small pulse lasers ... who wouldn't take a Medium laser for 1 ton and 1 crit which does 5 damage for 3 out to range 9 over a small pulse laser which does 3 damage for 2 and only has a better target at range 1 over the medium???
As for the missile racks and Autocannons ... yes the level 2 stuff is better ... but that's because the level 1 stuff mostly sucked. As far as I am concerned level 1 mechs had to pretty much all be laser boats to be effective (well have as many lasers as they could with single heatsinks ... the only reason why people ended up using non-energy weapons at all) whereas with level 2 you at least have the option of using some non-energy weapons. The really killer things like Gauss Rifles and RAC's I have found to be relatively balanced anyhow ... scarey yes ... but still balanced.
Those rotaries will empty your ammo faster than most realize so extra tonnage (and probably Case) has to be used to feed them. Also they jam more than people think ... I mean most people are shooting 4 or 6 rounds at a time to actually get anything out of a rotary and to be honest at 4 you have a 1/12 chance of jamming and at 6 you have a 1/6 chance. So yes the weapon is relatively devestating (4 heat will usually score you 3 x 5 damage for range 5/10/15 ... not bad but remember that weapon system is at least 14 tons and 8 crits ... that's almost 2 large lasers which do more damage and some double heatsinks)
Gauss rifles are simply a very specialized weapon that requires a mech to built around it. For the tonnage and crit-space you can afford a whole lot of other things but again I am not denying the gauss is good but it is not the end-all.
I've found most of the IS level 3 tech to be kind of inane. I mean I like all of the construction options (new armor, structure, cockpits, gyros, etc ...) because to me options are what makes the world go round ... but the weapons systems are a tad dumb. Like X-pulse lasers. Talk about crap.
Anyhow I'll quit ranting. I am young and fairly new to this game but I try and be analytical in my approach to assessing what works and what doesn't.
[ This Message was edited by: Feral on 2004-05-14 10:52 ]
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 13:36 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-14 06:16, Sir Henry wrote:
So we are talking semantics now??? eh, Chihawk?
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The entire game system is based on semantics...
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 14:05 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-14 13:36, chihawk wrote:
Quote:
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On 2004-05-14 06:16, Sir Henry wrote:
So we are talking semantics now??? eh, Chihawk?
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The entire game system is based on semantics...
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I would like to point out a semantical correction that in truth semantics only applies to the interpretation of the rules ... and the rules are just the means to the end ... which is tactical combat. The game system is based on tactical combat between mechs, semantics only applies to the interpretation of the rules that dictate actions.
So I would say half of the game is based on semantics (action adjudication) whereas the other half of the game is based on tactics. In truth those two things only represent that action-resolution part of the game. Add in the scope of mech creation/modification or the history and the background information and all of the limitless ways the game can be played (many of which throw out some of the base rules or differ in the way they semantically interpret the rules) you end up with the semantical translation of the rules being a very small piece of the puzzle.
In the end it's a game about mech combat and the rules are only the framework ... a very small part of what makes the game fun for me anyhow. Everyone finds pleasure differently though.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 14:20 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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You'll note I used "game system" and not just "game"...the entirety of the game system (and in fact, every game system) is semantics.
The game itself isn't just semantics...
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
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| Posted: 14-May-2004 14:31 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-14 14:20, chihawk wrote:
You'll note I used "game system" and not just "game"...the entirety of the game system (and in fact, every game system) is semantics.
The game itself isn't just semantics...
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Ahh yes ... taking me apart with your semantics.
It is true though ... rules and mechanics, by definition really ... are all about semantics.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2004 18:54 Post subject: RE: Disliked weapons |
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On 2004-05-12 19:57, Vagabond wrote:
streak SRMs are balanced and fair.
streak LRMs are not.
it is that simple.
a streak SRM has to be 9 or less hexes away and does at best 12 dmg.
while STLRMs has a 21 range and can do 20 dmg.
it is not a factor of sense or feesability. it is a matter of game balance, which streak LRMs are not.
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Streak LRMs are balanced fine...after all, you still need to hit with them to take the damage, and that damage is in groups of 5.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2004 18:55 Post subject: RE: Disliked weapons |
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On 2004-05-13 09:40, Wanallo wrote:
If LRM's are an indirect fire weapon, surely a Streak weapon would be impractical? They fire in an arched ballistic style rather than straight forward like the SRMS. So a streak variant wouldn't work would it?
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LRMs are a direct fire weapon that can be fired indirectly...I'm not sure of it but I would think that streakLRMs would not be able to fire indirectly because they wouldn't be able to get a lock-on to fire.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5646
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-May-2004 00:48 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-14 09:19, Feral wrote:
Quote:
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On 2004-05-14 00:26, Vagabond wrote:
IS PPC
dmg: 10
heat: 10
rng: 6/12/18
min: 3
ton: 7
crit: 3
Cl LPL
dmg: 10
heat: 10
rng: 6/14/20
min: 0
ton: 6
crit: 2
bonus: -2 to hit
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Yeap clan technology is badassed and they have two PPCs ... the large pulse laser and the ERPPC
So are you saying you dislike all clan technology?
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no saying i don't like there pulse lasers.
if they cut back the ranges to say the original IS lasers then we would have a neutral ground to bargin on.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-May-2004 10:30 Post subject: RE: Disliked weapons |
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If they can be fired indirectly, which I don't think they can..., then they would lose the Streak benefits and act like a normal LRM launcher.
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Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 16-May-2004 17:06 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-16 00:48, Vagabond wrote:
no saying i don't like there pulse lasers.
if they cut back the ranges to say the original IS lasers then we would have a neutral ground to bargin on.
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Well I'm not going to argue with you there ... clan pulse lasers are indeed vicious and have such good range that they make clan ER lasers not really much of a bargain (well not in range ... the ER lasers are still quite a bit lighter though ...).
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 16-May-2004 20:32 Post subject: RE: Nein on the Sarcasm, Vagabondmeister. |
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I thought clan weapons were supposed to be very superior to IS tech? Like when the Star League attacked the Periphery realms in the Reunification War?
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 16-May-2004 22:17 Post subject: RE: Disliked weapons |
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AC/2s, and any version thereof
Pulse Lasers...especially the clan version
Light Gauss
LB-X cluster rounds
LRM-5s
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