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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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 Posted: 01-Oct-2006 23:52 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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God I beat the coolant out of that mech. And every round I thought that it was dead, yet it just would never stay down.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 04-Oct-2006 06:55 Post subject: TBT-5* (& 7K) Trebuchet |
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TBT-5* and 7K
I was deliberating on whether to do the Hunchback, Rifleman, Victor or Stalker next, when Vampire told me on MSN that I could do the Trebuchet. Of course! How could I not?! Not only is the base Trebuchet one of my all-time favourites of 3025, but it is also one of those wonderful designs that has A) variants that really make sense in an in-universe context and B) really fulfills different roles IN EVERY SINGLE VARIANT! Oh, goody! 
Once again, I want to refer you to the most underrated volume "First Strike!" by Bryan Nystul. It lists 7 categories of 'mechs, which I found to be a useful guide, if no more. For those of you who don't own it, you can actually access it online on mechground: "www.forum.mechground.com" - you need to sign up. You'll find First Strike under scenarios. I hope I didn't break any rules by putting up that URL.... Edit: This no longer exists. Apparently the scenarios will reappear sometime in the future at the current incarnation of mechground. Apparently this tactical bit is also in the Beginner's Box. Anyone like to confirm this?
TBT-5N - the basic model of the Trebuchet is actually one of the designs named in First Strike as a MISSILE BOAT. This is obvious. The two large LRM launchers make up 85% of its weapon weight. I actually think it is atypical of its category in that it invests more in speed than in armour (Whitworth and Archer are opposite and more typical examples). It carries little armour and ammo. I personally feel that that is no real problem. I quite like the characterisation in TRO:3025 - "Although it does not carry enough ammunition to cripple an opponent at long range, it can 'soften up' the enemy. This is useful against heavy 'Mechs, such as the Marauder and the BattleMaster, that lack LRM racks of their own."
While I would argue about the wisdom of discounting the Marauder's long range fire-power (3 hexes difference isn't a lot), I totally agree that this is a support design against really big and slow targets with a predominance of short-range weaponry. I'm looking at things like the Victor, Battlemaster and Atlas here. So it isn't conventional in that it won't sit in a "firing nest" that MISSILE BOATS usually use. It doesn't anchor any line or stuff like that. It is a head-hunter MISSILE BOAT. It picks its target/victim and then uses its above-average speed to try to keep the ranges at the desired distance.
I like this design a lot. It has the fire-power of something like a Hunchback (even though in a totally different character), but keeps up the speed to what a medium should have. Its lack of ammo is its life-line, it should withdraw when it runs out of it.
In one-off games it becomes expendable, meaning it can then be used in almost callous strikes which often field surprising results.
And yes, all this clearly means that this is very much a support design. It would fare much less well if it was fielded as the main head of any force.
TBT-5S - no, the Trebuchet isn't named like a lot of other designs. This isn't the Steiner variant, but much rather the generic SRM variant. It really is beautifully clean: it replaces the LRMs with an equal amount of big SRM launchers and then fills up on heat sinks. Yes, even though it is then aimed at short ranges, it does not increase the weak armour. No weird extra tacked-on plates.....
This is now definitely a STRIKER. Personally, I find this category to be a very difficult one to use: not as fast as a SCOUT, but way more brittle than a BRAWLER. Not as versatile as a SKIRMISHER. How exactly do you use it? Ok, it is perfect for hitting objectives, but then, I don't usually play campaigns or special scenarios. And, more weapons or not, in most cases STRIKERs still don't have a knock-out punch....or do they?
In many ways, the Trebuchet -5S is probably the largest STRIKER that I can think of right now. And that really, really shows in its guns. With 3 ML (15 damage) and 2 SRM6 (an average of 16 damage) it can easily outgun most other 3025 designs at closer ranges, especially considering it has the heat sinks to use all of that. Yes, that includes any weight classes (exceptions being the Victor, Stalker, Atlas and, only if it overheats, the Cyclops. The Hunchback is roughly on par).
I'm kinda split on this one. I've used it a couple of times and it did well, but couldn't stand up to return fire.
TBT-5J - The Marik variant. The J is for jump jets. By halfing the no of LRMs, the Trebuchet becomes slightly more resilient, jumps 5 hexes and loses the need to bracket-fire (it gains 5 HS).
This means that it now is a true SKIRMISHER - a jack of all, master of none. Annoying at all ranges, but no real threat.
The problem I see here is that there are already a *lot* of designs that fulfill that role, anyways. It is no better than a lot of them.
I've never used it (BV is way too high, thanks to the good heat dissipation and JJ), so I shouldn't really go on about it....
TBT-7K - "WTF?!" some of you may exclaim. Well, this design has the Kuritan spin to it (and do you remember what they did to the Catapult?). The design originates in "Sorenson's Sabres" as seen in a Sword of Light regiment. It was never fully made clear whether this was a field refit or a factory refit kit or a limited factory run (unlike the Hermes III, also released in that volume, which was a factory conversion line thing). So a conservative guess tells us that it may not be unique but it is likely to be extremely rare.
This drops all the weaponry and replaces it rather arbitrarily. It mounts an AC5, a PPC and an SRM2 along with an extra HS, which means that it clearly becomes a SNIPER.
A bit of everything for this design, no?
I quite like that load-out. It can handle the heat, it will surprise unwary opponents (unless the model is nicely converted....yes, I went through that trouble).
But it is the only one of these designs that cannot, ever, cause more than 20 damage in a pinch. It also still mounts the mediocre armour.
In a way, this needs to fall back into the SKIRMISHER role of leading a running battle with rather ineffective firing if it ever gets *noticed*. But then, the Jagermech is screwed, too, if anyone ever concentrates on it....
Ok, I think I've run out of steam thoroughly. I picked out this design because of its varied roles and because I totally love the stock design. I realise this wasn't very nuanced, but then, that is what you guys are here for. No? 
edit: November 27th, 2007 - changed title, put in note about mechground, changed the first lip-licking smiley to a thumbs up - apparently emoticons have changed...
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
[Last edited by jymset on 27-Nov-2007 06:17; edited 1 time in total]
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 04-Oct-2006 09:02 Post subject: RE: Discussion on variants of 3025 'mechs (currently: MAD, ON1, BLR) |
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The think I like about the basic Trebuchet is that it is mobile fire support, wich makes it suitable for a harasser role as well, but let's focus on variants, wich is the purpose of the thread
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TBT-5S - no, the Trebuchet isn't named like a lot of other designs. This isn't the Steiner variant, but much rather the generic SRM variant.
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Though I admit the variant naming is quite chaotic, for simplicity sake I assume that S Steinter, K Kurita.. and so on.
In fact the 5S fits well into House Steiner.. they have a penchant for SRMs.. their Thunderbolt replaces LRM 15 with a SRM 6, their Archer has SRM ranks, and their Locust too. So this is indeed a Lyran variant. Wich makes more sense considering the Lyrans have already slow missile boats and need fast 'Mechs.. is like a bigger brother of the Commando.
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It really is beautifully clean: it replaces the LRMs with an equal amount of big SRM launchers and then fills up on heat sinks.
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You call that clean? Filling up with heatsinks is the hallmark of the crude conversion.
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Yes, even though it is then aimed at short ranges, it does not increase the weak armour. No weird extra tacked-on plates.....
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The armor is not weak, just average. The mobility and longer range of the basic Trebuchet compensate for this lack.
But good point, 'Mech chassis are difficult to modifiy to add extra armor or remove it.
(more later)
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Memento audare semper
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 04-Oct-2006 13:32 Post subject: RE: Discussion on variants of 3025 'mechs (currently: MAD, ON1, BLR) |
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I must agree about the 5N, but I can't say that I like the other variants.
5J seems a little strange. I would rather leave both LRMs in place and only make them smaller, but the result would probably resemble the Dervish or Whitworth, so I would rather leave it alone.
5S... well, there are quite a few mechs with similar weapons (Hunchback SP, Whitworth S), so it makes sense, but I wonder if the armor will keep it safe, if there are some heavy guns in play, but I think that if it keeps a low profile and than it suddenly starts shredding someone at close range...
7K? Aehm, I don't know if it can still be called Trebuchet, it seems like the Pzkfw IV converted to carry AA turret (Wirbelwind). It may be possible, but it changes the original vehicle a lot.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 04-Oct-2006 20:49 Post subject: RE: Discussion on variants of 3025 'mechs (currently: MAD, ON1, BLR) |
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I like the various Trebuchets. I have used them all to varying effects.
The 5N is useful on a mobile battlefield. It is fun to put in charge of a couple fast LRM units and set them on mobile reserve/support.
The 5S is, like the Javelin, wonderful in an ambush. close range firepower is hard if not overpowering and it has the speed to withdraw behind terrain and thence get away to the next spot.
The 5J is a great raider. Wonderfully mobile, it can get to areas even faster and, having one hand, can be more than just support in a raid.
The 7K is just fun. I have one in a good lance in my one empire in Neveron. I use it as a sniper and long range support. I also use it as a pursuit mech when the enemy tries to retreat.
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 05-Oct-2006 14:33 Post subject: RE: Discussion on variants of 3025 'mechs (currently: MAD, ON1, BLR) |
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The 5N is probably my favorite missile boat for its mobility. The ammo supply does kind of stink, but that's a usual problem with missile boats. With the Trebuchet you have to be careful about firing on the run, because it can be tempting sometimes.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2007 07:08 Post subject: RFL-3* (& 4D) Rifleman |
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Ah, one of my favourite mechs ever! In the good old days of BV1 the vanilla model cost a mere 797 points, which - to me - was a great bargain! It's high time I cover this favourite; I'll start with the base model that spawned my love.
RFL-3N - This is the ubiquitous SNIPER. In terms of looks, in terms of stated role. Its weak armour (and, to a lesser extent, its heat problems) further cement its place on the battlefied. However, to me, it isn't so convincing in that role as it should be. Of the four guns in its arms, only two reach out to long range (18 hexes, but only LR in 3025 context). They only have 10 shots each. They can't put out a very powerful volume of fire.
Nevertheless, the design works. Apart from psychological warfare (such as it frequently being ignored in favour of more dangerous threats), it can actually cause a great amount of damage. The weaponry is there. The base 10 heat sinks make heat management a primary concern. But you can fire 3/4 of the arm weaponry without overheating. The ACs are great for its flexibility - fire both and don't move, you won't overheat. Once you move, you may actually not want to fire both ACs (because of A) ammo management and B) consecutive turns where even a +1 to the heat scale can throw you off). If you don't move and fire both lasers while saving a single AC, you don't even hit that detrimental +8 heat!
It really is workable. However, the relatively limited range of the LL means that you have to close to make those high-heat shots count. Is that then still a SNIPER? In most of my games, the Rifleman will find itself in a line fighting position at some stages (usually in the 2nd half of the game). This is where it should act as a BRAWLER - but really can't. The heat is a problem, and so is its extremely limited armour. The back is covered in paper. And so is, unfortunately, the head. I cannot agree with a 60-tonner carrying only 6 points of armour in the head. The legs can't handle kicks, and....you get the picture.
I love the Rifleman, but it really does very poorly in any sort of melee. It is by virtue of what it *cannot* do, that it takes up the role of a SNIPER. Fortunately, it is just up to scratch in at least that role. It is in fact a very weak SNIPER with a great secondary array.
Master of none, yet jack of very little, the Rifleman is an idiosyncratic mech that in order to use successfully, you really have to become emotionally attached to. However, once you do, you will realise that it is not half as bad as many nay-sayers argue.
RFL-3C - right, the Davions love their Rifleman and the Davions love their ACs. What was a logical step? To mount bigger cannons on the Rifleman!
They simply removed the LL to do so. This is actually not a half-bad solution. The guns are very meaningful. Unfortunately the range decreases. This is no SNIPER anymore.
Does it work as a BRAWLER? Unfortunately: no.
You see, after exchanging the ACs, the removal of the LL only allowed for two extra tons of additional equipment. That is simply too little.
The additional ammo still only brings up the endurance to the same old 10 turns, but now without the agreeable backup from said LL. The addition of a ton of armour is certainly very welcome (bringing up the legs to match the arms, ooo-rah, and finally armouring the head to its max), but does not suffice to allow the Rifleman to enter any sort of melee.
So what is this? I know not. You tell me!
Which brings me to an interesting conclusion. Is the 3C better than the 3N? In direct comparison? Yeah, I'd say so. In the big picture, in terms of its place on the battlefield? I'd take the 3N over the 3C any day of the week!
RFL-4D - and after mounting new ACs and realising they wouldn't work, the Davions then tried to simply improve the Rifleman at any cost. The result was a Rifleman without ACs at all. The 4D exchanges the ACs for PPCs, dropping the ML for another 2 additional HS.
Unfortunately, this is before the advent of DHS. With 15 heat sinks, it can't come close to alpha striking.
To cut this short: I don't like it much. It can work as both a SNIPER (2 PPCs - 1 PPC - 2 PPCs - etc) and in a pinch as a BRAWLER. However, it is going to look poor in both roles. There are other designs out there that pull of the dual-PPC shtick much more convincingly (I'm not going to stoop so low as to point them out). And if you're really going to use this as a line mech, remember that it'll "only" add 2 LL to your force - something that the Ost mechs of the same weight do in a manner that is A) quicker, B) better protected (the 4D has to make do with the same miserable 7.5 tons of armour) and C) more flexibly (they all have at least 2 additional ML facing the front). So how is this justified as anything other than an interesting historical foot-note that would lead up to the halfway decent RFL-5D of 3050?
There you go. Once again, I put my weight behind the base model. With the exception of the Orion, this is looking like a trend, isn't it? But I for one am glad - I feel that this is the way it should be, the base model being the most attractive buy with the others merely catering to specific flavours of the customer!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 03:52 Post subject: RFL-3* (& 4D) Rifleman |
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I like the 3N and I agree that it somehow works despite all of it's OBVIOUS faults. 3C looks usable (ammo truck is your Siamese twin), but I never even thought about using the PPC variant. I prefer different solutions...
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 03:58 Post subject: TBT-5N |
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As I was thinking about it... one ton of ammo instead of laser anyone?
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 09:48 Post subject: RFL-3* (& 4D) Rifleman |
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That definitely is an interesting take on the Rifleman!
What would I do?
Well, possibly drop the 2 ML of the -3N and replace them with HS. That way, you can actually move a bit while firing.
But that isn't really necessary.
Replacing the LL with ML and some extra ammo, armour and HS should be workable, too.
Something like +4 ML, +2 tons armour, +1 ton ammo, +3 HS. Hey, it could still overheat by quite a bit! Reminds me of that LGauss Marik variant out of PP. But really, that only has passing semblance to a Rifleman.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 09:52 Post subject: TBT-5N |
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Hm, nope, don't really like it. That third medium laser gives it firepower *just* above the standard "token defense" TM. Coupled with its mobility, it can act as a very light STRIKER once its ammo is depleted. Not an ideal case, but better than nothing.
If you were going to do what you suggested, what about removing all ML? I mean, this thing is just about the fastest LRM boat of 3025 (together with the much weaker Valkyrie). If all ML were removed, I'd double the ammo load and add a HS. That would totally redefine mobile fire support.
I'd still prefer the base model, though.
Thanks for commenting on this old topic! Do you have any requests?
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 11:26 Post subject: TBT-5N |
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Requests? Umm, no, you can continue with what you were doing if you wish an I'll occasionally throw something in it...
I read all reviews in 3025 sections as I reviewed the TRO, some were really funny, some weren't. It would be nice to see some more discussion on this topic (3025 'Mechs).
I must agree that the 5N is the best variant of the lot and I used this one as a base for my Trebuchet IIC refit, which came out better than I originally expected (according to the review I dare to say that you liked it). The TBT really becomes nasty when MMLs are installed (to hell with Narc ). The ammo was just a random idea, but It's hard to take anything away. With LRM-10s it wouldn't be that scary...
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 11:58 Post subject: RFL-3* (& 4D) Rifleman |
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The problem with the RFL is that it devoted so much tonnage to weapons but still managed to use it well that it's hard to modify in any way.
For another modification I would look on a 'Mech that was created as a Rifleman modification, the Jagermech.
Just look what happened when I replaced the ACs with LRMs...
| Code: | BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Rifleman RFL-3M
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 1, Standard design
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: Kallon Type IV Standard
Power Plant: 240 Pitban Fusion
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Kallon Royalstar Standard
Armament:
2 Large Lasers
2 LRM 10s
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Kallon Industries
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: Garret T-11A
Targeting & Tracking System: Garret D2j
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Rifleman RFL-3M
Mass: 60 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 99 pts Standard 0 6,00
Engine: 240 Fusion 6 11,50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 13 Single 4 3,00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 HD, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 CT)
Gyro: 4 3,00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3,00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 ,00
Armor Factor: 136 pts Standard 0 8,50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 20 22
Center Torso (Rear): 5
L/R Side Torso: 14 16/16
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 4/4
L/R Arm: 10 15/15
L/R Leg: 14 15/15
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Laser RA 8 2 5,00
1 LRM 10 RA 4 36 5 8,00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 CT)
1 Large Laser LA 8 2 5,00
1 LRM 10 LA 4 2 5,00
1 Medium Laser RT 3 1 1,00
1 Medium Laser LT 3 1 1,00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 30 44 60,00
Crits & Tons Left: 34 ,00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 4 942 400 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1 151 (old BV = 825)
Cost per BV2: 4 294,01
Weapon Value: 764 / 764 (Ratio = ,66 / ,66)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 14; MRDmg = 10; LRDmg = 5
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 3/5
Damage PB/M/L: 2/2/1, Overheat: 2
Class: MH; Point Value: 12
Specials: if
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One additional ton of armor covering the weakest areas, the LRMs can roughly match the firepower of the ACs, the range is slightly improved and there are 18 salvos per weapon. Lasers now can easily fire at 2-1-2 rate while the 'Mech walks and LRM min range discourages the pilot from firing all weapons at once. It certainly isn't perfect and it's much less RFL-like, but I can see something like this appearing as a minor factory variant.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2007 18:27 Post subject: TBT-5N |
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I have a request. Take a gander at 3025 Charger varients. CGR-1A1, CGR-1A5, CGR-1A9, CGR-1L, and CGR-SB.
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 29-Nov-2007 02:17 Post subject: TBT-5N |
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What an excellent request! Do you have a link to the stats of the CGR-1A5? Otherwise I'll have to do it off memory. But I love the Charger as a subject, because this will be another 'mech that will have changed mission profiles in each and every variant. Look for that tomorrow or the day after.
So, did you like your namesake 'mech or not?
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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