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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 24-Sep-2005 00:26 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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What ever Ruger, I am sorry but the WoB Jihad storyline doesn't fly. It has holes, holes that can't be filled by saying they have Terra or that they have the money from the FWL and no one saw this before the WoB applying to the SL for membership...again it's to convienent.
Then we are to believe that the WoB jumps into the Outreach system, beats the Dragoon fleet and then nukes a merc world, just because they are worried about the Dragoons? Come on that is so lame and unbelievable it's not even funny.
Sure maybe the Wobbies could take a couple of worlds in some of the systems around Terra and maybe they could convince some to join them in a new Terran Hegemongy or something similar but to do what they do all over IS is far fetched and streatching things way to far.
Yes we need something to keep the universe moving forward to some degree, but then again we did pretty well for the number of years when all we had was the events prior to the 4th War to play in. And then there are other plot lines that could have been used to trigger more IS fighting, say keeping the FedCom Civil War going longer and bloodier then it was. That would have be interesting.
Or take the Ravens moving into the IS via the Outworld Alliance. Now there is something to stir up the Combine and the Suns and really make the Lyrans happier as they would see it as chance for the Suns worlds to get the beating that they took in the first invasion...
Or the St. Ives Conflict could have been the power keg for a 5th Succession War, similar to events in Europe prior to WW1 or WW2 or some of the other conflicts in history, after all man does seem doomed to repeat past mistakes...
And if those don't seem all that great then maybe the campaign against the Jaguars could have been handled differently and lasted longer then it did, thus turning things on its' ear and giving us a more believable set of events for the needed change in the BT universe.
But we are stuck with the poorly done Jihad and have to live with it if playing in the canon universe for the back drop as to how our characters in the RPG live and breath. But noting the number of folks who aren't buying into it and have so stated on the numerous boards about BT, it's clear that this plot line wasn't the best choice. But maybe over time folks will buy into it, after all they have no choice really since we know the future out come already since it's based off these "current" events.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 01:40 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 00:26, Karagin wrote:
Then we are to believe that the WoB jumps into the Outreach system, beats the Dragoon fleet and then nukes a merc world, just because they are worried about the Dragoons? Come on that is so lame and unbelievable it's not even funny.
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Lame? Unbeliavable? Like the Dragoons holding off the full might of House Kurita on the Davion border during the 4th Succession War? Oh, wait, that was because the Kurita in charge wanted to kill them and deliberately sent all his forces against them instead of taking more worlds. Or did you mean lame and unbeliavable like the clan invasion? 
People defending their home can't run away, so they stand and fight. But no matter how motivated you are it doesn't help if the enemy brings bigger guns and more men. One battleship group will lose to three battleship groups unless someone blunders catastrophically.
Sure, things could have been handled better concerning the game's background story. I just see this as an attempt to get out of the spiral of bigger guns, larger wars by having a large enough conflict to make people think about keeping a low profile again. They already tried the Star League but it failed.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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Khayman
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Corporal
Joined: 14-Nov-2004 00:00
Posts: 91
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 05:23 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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About the money thing, it still doesn't make sense to me. Ok even if it was 10-15% from the FWL, shouldn't they have noticed? I believe even Victor commented that SAFE was doing better. Or was the FWL actively funding the WoB this much money? If so, then how did they get all those provinces within it to agree to that?
With the amount of money that is supposedly being made by a House, isn't it less than you mentioned because of all the bills, legislations, laws, civil duties, expenses, etc? Which would definietely lessen the amount the WoB recieved dramatically. I mean Steiner's large jumpship fleet (or was it Davion?) put it into the red for a while at one point but if the houses were making as much money as you say, then that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Also, you said they were doing that for 10 years or so correct? Even with HPG funds and other activities, they had a large standing army, numerous agents everywhere, a slow warship program (how did they outnumber the Dragoon fleet?  ) , were also working in joint projects with Marik and Lao and possibly other groups for research and development, etc.
So they had numerous expenses.
I don't think this can be answered unless a source book (like what everyone else mentioned already) is released that explains all this. But like I said, I know little of the Jihad so someone might no the answeer to this irritating question.
Thanks in advance and sorry if this may have offended anyone.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1915
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 09:28 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 05:23, Khayman wrote:
About the money thing, it still doesn't make sense to me. Ok even if it was 10-15% from the FWL, shouldn't they have noticed? I believe even Victor commented that SAFE was doing better. Or was the FWL actively funding the WoB this much money? If so, then how did they get all those provinces within it to agree to that?
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"Thomas" Marik had agreed to about 10% before hand...this was just a little extra, hidden in the books...very easy to do, if you know how...
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With the amount of money that is supposedly being made by a House, isn't it less than you mentioned because of all the bills, legislations, laws, civil duties, expenses, etc? Which would definietely lessen the amount the WoB recieved dramatically. I mean Steiner's large jumpship fleet (or was it Davion?) put it into the red for a while at one point but if the houses were making as much money as you say, then that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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The money the WoB took, by my understanding, was before all that other stuff...and yes, the huge majority of money that each house gets goes to other things other than military expeditures...because they can only get so much hardware (at least the really expensive stuff like 'Mechs, WarShips, AeroSpace fighters and newtech)...
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Also, you said they were doing that for 10 years or so correct? Even with HPG funds and other activities, they had a large standing army, numerous agents everywhere, a slow warship program (how did they outnumber the Dragoon fleet? ) , were also working in joint projects with Marik and Lao and possibly other groups for research and development, etc.
So they had numerous expenses.
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For the WarShips...they took the Titan yards and found the Ruins of Gabriel...plus, they knew the locations of several mothballed and scuttled ships from the Star League days...then the FWL conveniently provided them several ships as well...
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I don't think this can be answered unless a source book (like what everyone else mentioned already) is released that explains all this. But like I said, I know little of the Jihad so someone might no the answeer to this irritating question.
Thanks in advance and sorry if this may have offended anyone.
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And those sourcebooks will be out...just not everything can be released at one time...
Ruger
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 11:07 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 01:40, Nightmare wrote:
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On 2005-09-24 00:26, Karagin wrote:
Then we are to believe that the WoB jumps into the Outreach system, beats the Dragoon fleet and then nukes a merc world, just because they are worried about the Dragoons? Come on that is so lame and unbelievable it's not even funny.
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Lame? Unbeliavable? Like the Dragoons holding off the full might of House Kurita on the Davion border during the 4th Succession War? Oh, wait, that was because the Kurita in charge wanted to kill them and deliberately sent all his forces against them instead of taking more worlds. Or did you mean lame and unbeliavable like the clan invasion?
People defending their home can't run away, so they stand and fight. But no matter how motivated you are it doesn't help if the enemy brings bigger guns and more men. One battleship group will lose to three battleship groups unless someone blunders catastrophically.
Sure, things could have been handled better concerning the game's background story. I just see this as an attempt to get out of the spiral of bigger guns, larger wars by having a large enough conflict to make people think about keeping a low profile again. They already tried the Star League but it failed.
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Never said the Dargoon vs Kurtia plot line was the best thing they could have done either, I said that the current line of the story that has a splinter group going from nothing to godhood in such a small amount of time leaves so much tossed to the side that could have been used to move the universe forward. The Dragoons holding off a couple of similar units for a couple of months sure that is believable, but not much beyond that. And no they wouldn't be in any shape do anything for along time and would have in real life or in a different setting disbanded or become a smaller enity, but FASA didn't want that since they had linked the Dragoons to the SLDF in a lot of ways and the Dragoons was and is a fan favorite. Things dealing with them then could have been done differently, that I agree with.
There was so much that could have been used and still left room for the WoB to do something to gain a few planets but the bigger events overshadowed their moves, but no, they took it down the route that WoB launches all of these attacks trying to make it look like other folks etc...and doing it without regard to logical even for the BT universe, things like cost and supplies etc...
We all complain about folks who post their home units that have tons of uber-tech or a merc unit with a caputred Clan warship etc...yet it's okay and acceptable for the WoB to become something similar and no one can complain about it or point out that its' munchkinism run rampant.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 11:12 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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Funny how the WoB has found or taken all they need, and can get them working and up to speed to make everything they need, but meanwhile the houses are forced to wait months for things, yet the WoB can have it at a snap.
Sorry but I am not buying this. Yes they took Terra but it's far from a perfect holding, it has pissed off populus as well as issues ComStar left behind, yet none of this seems to have slowed WoB down. And it's amazing how things are just dropped in their laps. The WoB must be the most lucky group in the BT universe.
Maybe I am expecting more for TPTB then what has been give out so far for this, this seems like a really bad rehash of some of the very bad B sci-fi movies from the 50s up to current time frame.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Khayman
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Corporal
Joined: 14-Nov-2004 00:00
Posts: 91
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 14:25 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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Thanks for the clarrification Ruger. 
This still doesn't make much sense to me. I agree with Karagrin's comparison to this and an old sci-fi movie. Majority of them have horrible plots BUT we still watch them anyway and often it's because they are still entertainable. Ninja Turtles isn't exactly a good story plot but I love that series.
If I think of it like that, I can tolerate the WoB Jihad. I will still hate it but at least it is now tolerable i my view. What I still can't stand, is the whole "Republic of the Sphere," story that I have heard about. But that discussion is for another day.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 14:46 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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I think that if WoB stayed with old ComStar style (manipulating from the shadows), they would have accomplished much more. Instead of making attacks with whole armies and disguising them, allowing the ancient enemies to tear them selves apart and secretly helping both sides. Twisting message here, sending other there, making raids and masquerading as someone else, or sending agents to commit war crimes during someone else's raid (like Grey Death trilogy). Making things with careful plotting, instead of rushed action, like supporting pirates and subtly directing them to attack one state more often, that state will send force hunting for them and weakens defenses elsewhere, than accidentally informing enemies about the weakness, ... supporting hatred among the states and benefiting from the results (unhappy people seeking guidance, sabotaging and blaming the others, ...). it would take more time, but I doubt that there would be another Focht that would ruin second op. Scorpion 
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 20:21 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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Quote:
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On 2005-09-24 11:07, Karagin wrote:
We all complain about folks who post their home units that have tons of uber-tech or a merc unit with a caputred Clan warship etc...yet it's okay and acceptable for the WoB to become something similar and no one can complain about it or point out that its' munchkinism run rampant.
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But you forgot that the Wobblies LOST! They didn't actually have enough stuff to force the Inner Sphere to bow before them, they just thought so. They did a lot of damage but were ultimately beaten.
Just like a certain Adolf Hitler. Who managed to re-arm his country without anyone complaining. Who managed to research new weapons without anyone knowing before they were used. Who thought his superior race could take on the whole world and enslave or exterminate all lesser peoples.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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McBride
Draconis Combine
Shujin
Joined: 06-Nov-2004 00:00
Posts: 101
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 20:41 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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The whole Jihad was poorly thought out, and I think it was more TPTB dancing for their new puppeteers at WotC than actually trying to make a believable or even enjoyable storyline.
I agree that there were so many more things that could have been done to move the universe forward, but the way I see it, they simply tried to make the universe fit WotC's new clickytech rather than make that fit the universe.
As for the issues of cost, equipment and manpower brought up, there's no way the WoBblies would be able to amass enough resources in such a short time. If they had all these resources, you'd think they'd be able to do something about the ROM terror attacks on Terra, right? You'd also then think that those same ROM agents operating on Terra would notice something.
What the Jihad reminds me of, actually, is a really bad rehash of the Amaris plot in Star Lord.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 21:59 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 20:21, Nightmare wrote:
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On 2005-09-24 11:07, Karagin wrote:
We all complain about folks who post their home units that have tons of uber-tech or a merc unit with a caputred Clan warship etc...yet it's okay and acceptable for the WoB to become something similar and no one can complain about it or point out that its' munchkinism run rampant.
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But you forgot that the Wobblies LOST! They didn't actually have enough stuff to force the Inner Sphere to bow before them, they just thought so. They did a lot of damage but were ultimately beaten.
Just like a certain Adolf Hitler. Who managed to re-arm his country without anyone complaining. Who managed to research new weapons without anyone knowing before they were used. Who thought his superior race could take on the whole world and enslave or exterminate all lesser peoples.
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Yes Hitler did all of that...and the thing is he did it openly for the most part. He didn't have new tech at the start of the war, he had generals who had new tactics that gave them the edge.
The Germans took on and beat almost all of Europe. When they tried to fight on two fronts they lost. That is where things end for the comparison here.
The Wobbies haven't had any trouble getting what they need, where as the Germans got beat in WW1 and then suffered under the treaty that ended WW1 and had them going through out right civil war. I haven't seen the Wobbies have those issues, all we have seen is one man wipe out his enemies. And at the same time the WoB was stilling do all kinds of things. Sorry Nightmare but comparing the WoB to the Nazis isn't going to work. They don't compare and thus we are back where we started.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 22:03 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 20:41, McBride wrote:
The whole Jihad was poorly thought out, and I think it was more TPTB dancing for their new puppeteers at WotC than actually trying to make a believable or even enjoyable storyline.
I agree that there were so many more things that could have been done to move the universe forward, but the way I see it, they simply tried to make the universe fit WotC's new clickytech rather than make that fit the universe.
As for the issues of cost, equipment and manpower brought up, there's no way the WoBblies would be able to amass enough resources in such a short time. If they had all these resources, you'd think they'd be able to do something about the ROM terror attacks on Terra, right? You'd also then think that those same ROM agents operating on Terra would notice something.
What the Jihad reminds me of, actually, is a really bad rehash of the Amaris plot in Star Lord.
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But you will be told their holding Terra was the key to all of this and their alliance with the different mech makers and such gave them all they needed. Meanwhile the whole IS ignores them...
I agree this whole this is a bad rehash of the Amaris plot...maybe if FASA had done something like this with the SLDF when they retook Terra and then had them attack the IS ala the Clan attack in 3050 and then with the IS barring down on them, they pull something like what the WoB is doing, then it might be more believable...but hey in 15 years, give or take 5 years, we have them go from terror group to military super power with ability to reach every where and do all kinds of things... 
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1915
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 23:25 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 14:46, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
I think that if WoB stayed with old ComStar style (manipulating from the shadows), they would have accomplished much more. Instead of making attacks with whole armies and disguising them, allowing the ancient enemies to tear them selves apart and secretly helping both sides. Twisting message here, sending other there, making raids and masquerading as someone else, or sending agents to commit war crimes during someone else's raid (like Grey Death trilogy).
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Karagin...that WAS part of what they did...no one has proven which forces really attacked Skye (thought to be FWL)...or bombard Sian )thought to be Davion...more appropriately Capellan March...forces)...or drop asteroids on Taurus (again, thought to be Davion forces)...
Ruger
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1915
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2005 23:32 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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On 2005-09-24 11:12, Karagin wrote:
Yes they took Terra but it's far from a perfect holding, it has pissed off populus as well as issues ComStar left behind, yet none of this seems to have slowed WoB down.
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Where does it say that Terra has a pissed off population?
Ruger
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5646
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2005 03:01 Post subject: RE: Dawn Of The Jihad |
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You keep saying everywhere... however, it is to my knowledge a military cxampaign that takes place on within the first 100 light years or so around terra, with the exception of key military long range strikes, and not much further.
If i am wrong, do please enlighten me. however, if i am not wrong, it can hardly be called everywhere.
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