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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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 Posted: 25-Mar-2005 07:39 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Now that I will agree with. For:
"No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy."
That is one of the oldest and most true military quotes. I think it was even in a BT novel once or twice heh.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 08:32 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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On 2005-03-23 23:15, Blackhand wrote:
I ran it, Jumped 9 got the awesome shot back. Mech proceeded to arm flip and end my day. Next time it was a failed piloting check into wooded hex as its IS standard pilot in this ride. Next time is a box defence and I said screw it and had it play around at 6 hexes and try to avoid getting hit, doesn't work.
It will work, AGAINST an opponent not prepared to arm flip, who doesn't box his troops, and who doesn't carry artillery mechs to fire across his formations with spotters, also needs a better than IS average pilot.
Thats a few too many conditions for me to guarenty sucess on.
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1st time: Not knowing what your opponent has for weapons caused your mech's death, which is not a failure of the mech. It's a failure of the pilot.
2nd time: Failing a pilot check is what caused your mech's death, which is not a failure of the mech. It's a failure of the pilot.
3rd time: I have no idea what happened there as you didn't really give any info.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 09:28 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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I would have to agree with the majority on this one (and not just because I designed this mech). The 1st two battles are pilot errors (with some bad rolling of dice). With the last one. If they are in a 'box' defense then you need to send in something heavier to break up the box before this can go in. This is not meant to go up against the big guys all the time. It is meant for a similar role as the Spider. It is to hunt down scouts and weak mediums. The nice thing the jumping range has is the ability to exploit any mistakes the assaults make. The SRM does a good job of crit seeking during the clean-up portion of the battle. This will also be good in a harassing role if the wounded opponent is making a hasty retreat. It was never designed for a stand up toe to toe battle. That is why you lost it 3 times.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 11:19 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Basically its a diamond formation so you can't really get behind anyone to shoot because at least 2 of the lancemates have the ability to shoot in that direction.
Maybe Dark Adder could describe it better because its a tactic I use a lot. I can do it on the map, its just I can't describe how to do the box online.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 12:20 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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I understand the box formation, I just do not understand why anyone would want to attack it with a scout hunter.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 12:28 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Could be how some of us move our scout mechs. Could also be, that I play against a Steiner player a 1/3rd of the time and he has Centurion, Commando, Hunchback, Hollander. As his standard scout lance.
And yes, I've explained to him thats more a battle lance, but he's steiner must have the biggest things everywhere.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 19:12 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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If that is what he considers a scout lance, then you need something beefier than The Frog. As I said before, this was was not designed as a brawler. It is meant to go after the really fast buggers.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 20:06 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Well, I'm not denying its a good mech / effective in its abilities. I just won't ever use it do to the play group around here really. So for me meh.
 This has gotten to the point of running in circles. PM me to talk some more on this really. LOL
I apologize for being an inverate 3025 XL hater. 
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 20:41 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-25 20:06, Blackhand wrote:
Well, I'm not denying its a good mech / effective in its abilities. I just won't ever use it do to the play group around here really. So for me meh.
This has gotten to the point of running in circles. PM me to talk some more on this really. LOL
I apologize for being an inverate 3025 XL hater.
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To be blunt, you shouldn't be rating mechs based on how well they'd do against people you play against. You should be rating them based on how well they perform their MOS after you've used them for that purpose.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 21:30 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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So I'm suppost to some how divorce my play group and those I play against from the equation as I try to rate designs.
How is someone suppost to objectively rate a design that way? Its not like you can download "Average Battletech" player from the net and run the matches again and again to find out the ins and out of how it'd work against various things.
Look at Motown's reviews for someone heavily biased against anything not moving 10/15 minimum.
Look at Old Dog and his penchant for low cost Liao stuff getting highest ratings.
Look at DarkAdder and his unnatural love for Heavy lasers.
Look at Mud for a guy who seems cost concious and against the XL idea.
The list goes on, its not like you can ask them from pulling the people they play with from the rating scales. Because our penchant for various weapons and engine styles, is formed BY playing with HUMAN players.
Plus, even as you say its 9/14/9. Thats a serious speed. I'd take my cannon 3025 Spider against it any day of the week simply because I think its a better design. 8/12/8 or 9/14/9 is very little different in a light mech duel like that.
[ This Message was edited by: Blackhand on 2005-03-25 21:31 ]
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 21:49 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-25 21:30, Blackhand wrote:
So I'm suppost to some how divorce my play group and those I play against from the equation as I try to rate designs.
How is someone suppost to objectively rate a design that way? Its not like you can download "Average Battletech" player from the net and run the matches again and again to find out the ins and out of how it'd work against various things.
Look at Motown's reviews for someone heavily biased against anything not moving 10/15 minimum.
Look at Old Dog and his penchant for low cost Liao stuff getting highest ratings.
Look at DarkAdder and his unnatural love for Heavy lasers.
Look at Mud for a guy who seems cost concious and against the XL idea.
The list goes on, its not like you can ask them from pulling the people they play with from the rating scales. Because our penchant for various weapons and engine styles, is formed BY playing with HUMAN players.
Plus, even as you say its 9/14/9. Thats a serious speed. I'd take my cannon 3025 Spider against it any day of the week simply because I think its a better design. 8/12/8 or 9/14/9 is very little different in a light mech duel like that.
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Personal "bias" (I can't think of a better word to use there) is what reviews are about. But your rationalizing how you arrived at your rating of this mech is incredibly week.
By your own words the mech failed because you didn't know the load out of another mech it was fighting, and again it failed because you missed a pilot roll.
And then again in this post you said "I'd take my cannon 3025 Spider against it any day of the week simply because I think its a better design. 8/12/8 or 9/14/9 is very little different in a light mech duel like that"....well, not every mech is made to duel. And this one obviously isn't.
And that's really the essence of what I'm saying...
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 22:05 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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O.K. Blackhand I have posted what I look for in a mech when I do a review but just so people have an idea on what I do look for so they can understand my ratings better I will give out my main criteria obviously I do place a high value on speed I do take into account the era I expect more from the later designs especially in speed, level 1s I give more of a break in that department...one thing I rate almost as high if not as high as speed is armour ...I generally limit myself to rating lights because that is what I mostly use and I do not consider it to be fair to try to rate mechs that are of a class I rarely use so unless i have actually faced it in combat
I do not rate the larger designs I also place considerable value on weapon throw weight since I like fast mechs I also will give bonus points for mechs that have large batteries of short range weapons that as a group can dish out a lot of damage I like a mech that can strike a balance for instance if a light mech has a single large weapon that has a long range and can also move fast I will look at how it would do as a sniper that can change position quickly I also like to look at the mission profile as given in the fluff...while I do not judge a mech on its fluff I will take into account what the Fluff says it is supposed to do and whether or not it meets the criteria listed in the fluff. If somebody says a mech is supposed to be a city fighter I will expect to see short range High damage weapons if you say you have and inner sphere urban fighter and then load it down with LRMs prepared to see it hammered on the other hand I will understand somebody cutting the speed for jump jets lots of MGs and pulse lasers for that mission Like I said speed is my most important criteria but not the only one ...for example on this design I rated it rather low because even though it is very fast and mobile with its 9 jump jets i did not like the rather light armour and was not impressed with the weapon throw weight as a result I gave it a 2.0 because I felt that the other flaws off set the high speed and mobility On the other hand IIRC somebody came up with a 6/9/6 city fighter with a real nasty close in weapon load and decent heat control and got a 3.0 even though it was somewhat slow BTW
I also have a bug about heat If I feel a mech is fragile or lacks hitting power I will drop the hammer on it even if it is fast.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2005 02:20 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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One last kick at the can before I give up. I GAVE THIS MECH 2.5/5.0. Which is average and usable. Its not like I even was the guy who rated it the lowest out of all the reviews.
For a whopping doubling of the price over a spider 7M. I get an SRM 2, Double Heat sinks and a 1.5 tons more ferro fiberous.
1.5 tons sounds impressive right? It means instead of the 1st LL or PPC getting a crit chance on something, it'll take the 2nd one hitting you to just blow the whole thing off. Marginally better, but at the cost of an XL which could fall apart the first lucky PPC that hits a torso.
The reason the SRM 2 seems out of place to me is because your jumping around 9 hexs a shot. Its probably smarter to either strap two ER Mediums or another Medium Pulse into this chassis to make it have some kind of dependable damage. Plus with all your XL vulnerabilities do you really want one more thing that could go wrong?
I don't see the point. Never will, probably will never understand the need for XL engines in most designs. Although in another thread, Vagabond changed my mind near the end.
The double heat sinks are the most impressive part, but are in some ways under utilized when your primary weapons load out is a short ranged alpha strike. ERs would double your effective range and make you that much eviler when you decided to run rather than jump.
For me an XL addition to a chassis has to add something I can't get elsewhere. The little this adds (Doubles, SRM 2 (1t), and 1.5t of armour) doesn't seem worth it in my mind to get twice as many c-bills as the maginally less capable Spider 7M.
I'll agree my original review was weak and I probably should have lengthened it. But, at the same time its not like I tanked it, or even really think it wouldn't work. Its decent, over priced but decent.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2005 02:23 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Motown. In no way did I mean that as an attack that you had to respond to. If you wish I will duel you in a trial of refusal over my comments.
I was throwing out an example, and in no way shape or form have any reason to doubt your reviews. I enjoy your opinions, I may disagree with you but I realise they're value. I ask for the priviledge of the rite of surkai. As I did not mean to stir up anything with you.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2005 07:05 Post subject: RE: User Review: Fast Frog FFR-1OAF |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-26 02:20, Blackhand wrote:
For me an XL addition to a chassis has to add something I can't get elsewhere. The little this adds (Doubles, SRM 2 (1t), and 1.5t of armour) doesn't seem worth it in my mind to get twice as many c-bills as the maginally less capable Spider 7M.
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You forgot to mention that XL gets you an additional 1-2-1 of movement, and has been noted that is a significant amount in a light mech.
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