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Kiris65
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 17-Dec-2003 00:00
Posts: 371
Location: Panama
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 Posted: 24-Dec-2004 10:18 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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I like mechs with PPC,
I love mechs with 3 x PPCs
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Anata no gosenzo sama ni kao o awase rare masuka! - (Get ready to meet your ashamed ancestors!)
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 25-Dec-2004 07:40 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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While I love quads, I voted for the Victor. Dunno about most of you, but I have had great success piloting Victors over the years. The added mobility of the jumpjets offsets the lack of adequate armor IMO. While the Victor has a maximum range of 270 meters, once it gets there it can devestate many an opponent. Especially when said opponent has minimums on some or all it's weapons.
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drfunk
Draconis Combine
Kashira
Joined: 14-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 156
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 13-Jan-2005 07:31 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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I'd choose the awesome it just has alot of damage potential with those three ppc's. it's just a nasty mech to go up against. 
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 13-Jan-2005 09:38 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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I would have thought a couple of more people would jump on the I-won't-vote-Awesome-because-it-is-so-obvious bandwagon.
I mean, does anyone agree? It was a wide consensus in my old gaming group that the Awesome, as far as 3025 goes, was the most dangerous 'mech. As in bad-ass, powerful, untouchable. Much more so than the Atlas, and to a certain extent the Stalker.
Of course, it is the most powerful of the above. But what I also took into consideration was the looks, the story, the style of the design. And as a package, yes, I'd go for the Zeus. (In terms of performance alone, I would maybe even prefer the Victor!)
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13-Jan-2005 11:29 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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I almost voted for the Victor, but I'm an armor fanatic. I like the Zeus, I really like the Victor, but the Awesome's heavier armor means that it wins out in comparison.
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bladewind
Free Rasalhague Republic
Major General
Joined: 02-Oct-2004 00:00
Posts: 1054
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 13-Jan-2005 23:33 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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Its call an Awesome for a reason. 
The Awesome gets my vote.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2005 07:38 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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An interesting debate, , I will use an analogy comparing them to World War II tanks to better illustrate their strengths and weaknesses. I will start with everybody's favorite, but mine.
The Awesome most resembles in weaponry, armor, function
and mystique the German Tiger tank.
On paper and by general agreement it's the best of the lot, and it certainly lives up to his name, but it has its weaknesses.
Awesome? Certainly! Invincible? no.
The Awesome is the quintaessential assault 'Mech, its weapons and heavy armor make it a breakthrough weapon, but like
the Tiger tank, it needs the support of lighter units on its flanks. It also resembles closely that other german mastodon, the Elephant
assault gun, in wich it lacked close defense weaponry.
That being said, the AWS is not the best offensive weapon, like the Tiger it suffers from limited mobility, it's simply too slow and too heavy for maneuver warfare. It's not just that it lacks speed, it's that at 80 tons ground pressure starts to tell, increasing the chances of getting bogged down in anything other than hard, dry ground. So as the main line combat 'Mech heavy regiments would be better served by 'Mechs such as the i]Thunderbolt[/i] and Warhammer
But as a defensive weapon the AWS is superb, having long range heavy hitting weaponry and superior targetting (PPC and advanced tracking sensors resembling the 88 gun and excellent optics of the Tiger) but like the historical Tiger, those advantages are fully realized in open ground devoid of obstacles that offers no cover to the attacker (like steppes), if the Awesome has to fight in wooded or hilly terrain that limits line of sight, it can be flanked by faster ligther opponents and disabled by rear shots (just
as it happened to the Tiger in Normandy against the Shermans)
So much for mobility, I think everybody would agree on this point, and that is not that important if the 'Mech is basically employed as a mobile strongpoint. But what about weaponry? I think it is a bit overrated. If the 'Mech fires all 3 PPCs it quickly slows down from overheating, meaning that if you keep advancing and firing in an attack, by the time you get into medium range your AWS will be an overheated sitting duck. By the second full salvo, you are already slowed down to a crawl making enemy targetting easier, and causing the AWS trouble in bringing its weapons to bear if the enemy doesn't stand just ahead of it, adnd by the third you start getting heat penatlies to gunnery. So for the most part you are forced to fire only 2 PPCs.
However, if you do that, then the third one and surplus heat sinks are almost so much dead weight, being there as a backup if one of the guns is disabled. So the firepower advantage doesn't exist. Granted, the AWS can keep sustained fire, but heavy 'Mechs like the Warhammer can too keep a sustained fire with 2 PPCs, the heat penalties they incurr in doing so are balanced because their higher speed can pay for the heat slowdown effects, at least for a few turns, while the AWS gains no protection from its own movement unless walking straight ahead, and if forced into a run, the targetting penalties even out with those experienced by its hot running but faster opponents.
The difference that when the range closes, they can resort to backup weaponry. The problem is not so much heat dissipation but number of weapons. The AWS armament is an "all or nothing" affair, if the 'Mech fires just 2 PPCs, a heavy 'Mech can fire 1 PPC and 2-3 medium weapons with a higher probability of scoring hits, causing more damage on average. The AWS depends more on luck, and getting into close range to ensure hits means you are getting a lot more return fire, negating your range advantage, and risks getting you flanked, swarmed or simply affecting your aim as you frantically drag your feet trying to line up a shot . In conclusion, the Awesome is at a disadvantage in a running, turning fight, and at close range, and can end up like the Tigers at the battle of Kursk (or like the Elephant if there's infantry around, oh the ignominy!)
For the AWS to be successful it needs a good shooter at the controls, guns and armor are not enough, just as the Tiger tanks owed their successess to the skill of its crews. Other heavy and assault 'Mechs have so much guns that even a mediocre pilot is bound to hit with some, by virtue of their staying power they can win a firefight on the long run even if getting the worst of the fire exchange. The AWS however, is an specialist weapon. I reckon that is not a true general purpose "assault" 'Mech, because it lacks versatility and speed. Using them alone as a battering ram to get through the enemy line is not a efficient use of them. Unlike other assault and heavy 'Mechs, the Awesome needs the support of ligther , faster units to be successful.
The other possible method of employing the Awesome on the attack would be, keeping with the WWII tank analgoy, like the Soviet Josif Stalin heavy tank. Since it's too slow to keep up with the rest of the 'Mechs, let it stay at the rear, as a sniper to pick the enemy heaviest 'Mechs and vehicles with long range shots. It has no ammo worries, so it can keep blazing away until scoring enough hits to disable or destroy the threat. Though the PPCs have no antipersonnel effect, they can do away with bunkers and gun emplacements.
One final amusing coincidence with the Josif Stalin is that it had a slow rate of fire because the gun was a bitch to reload (large caliber shell with separate loading of charge and shot) just as the Awesome rate of fire is slowed down by the need to make cooling pauses.
I will continue with the others time and net access allowing.
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Memento audare semper
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2005 08:02 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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Good analogy. Will be interesting to see your ideas about the rest
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2005 20:12 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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The trick with the Awesome is the put it in a place where it does not have to move, so it can salvo fire three PPCs every other round and never have to worry about movement penalties. Even if you have to run though, you can fire a three-two-three pattern consistantly. If you can't do that in a battlefield situation, don't commit an Awesome to it. An Awesome is essentially a siege engine; deadly in it's intended role, but not very useful outside of that.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 28-Jan-2005 03:35 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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Welcome back, Vampire!!
Just on the heat issue: I'd go one further than mud. The Awesome's heat sinks allow it to always go for a 3-3-2 pattern, no matter what it does when moving.
Really, if willing to face some minor modifiers, a standing Awesome should be ok with 3-3-3-3-2 firing patterns. Now that is a fire-density that is just brutal.
And as I said above, it has to worry less about rear attacks than ANY other 'mech!!
Hey, didn't I vote the Zeus??
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 28-Jan-2005 18:11 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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What I really want to know is: Who voted for the Goliath anyway?
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Daphne Wilde
Star League Defense Force
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 19-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 425
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2005 01:52 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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O.K. Here's my paired credits.
There is a reason an Awesome Is an Awesome. Because It's just that in a stand up toe to toe. ( 3025 tech. )
( actually I would use a MAD - Variant But then I LOVE marauders)
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Lt.Col.Daphne Wilde
504 Para. 82 Div.
Io
? & ?
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 02-Feb-2005 02:57 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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Goliath
The Goliath is a mechanical monstrosity that is employed by lack of something better and that can be quite effective in some circumstances. A good analogy would be the Lee/Grant tank of World War II both for the weirdness factor, good armor, and relatively undergunned for its size. (other apt comparisons would be the french Char 1Bis, and the Russian KV2)
The Goliath good point is its very heavy armor protection that explains its continued survival by the 31st century instead of having ended in the scrapyard long ago. The other explanation is that it doesn't yield much in the way of spare parts if salvaged. Also, the scarcity of Battlemechs at this stage means that a mediocre Assault 'Mech is better that no 'Mech at all. That same scarcity makes assault 'Mechs even more decisive, lighter opponents can't stand up to it unless they are heavily armed heavies.
That's the theory, the fact is despite all that armor, the 'Mech is fragile.. all it takes are a few hits in one of the legs to force it off the field, even if the rest of the 'Mech is intact.
The weaponry is disappointing, good for a long range / sniper 'Mech, but is not significantly more powerful than that of a Griffin. The machineguns are a nice touch, but since this 'Mech should keep at a distance, getting close enough to infantry means that you have commited a serious blunder. It would have been preferable to have some other close defense weapons
(to be continued)
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 02-Feb-2005 04:43 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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Hi Vampire,
great to hear from you again. And this time I fully agree with your assessment!
Actually, I reckon you should cut-n-paste these opinions and put them up as reviews in the TRO section of this site!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 02-Feb-2005 04:53 Post subject: RE: 3025: which 80-tonner do you prefer? |
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The bane of the Goliath, it's quad configuration offers some advantages. It can travel across more difficult terrain than most 'Mechs, and its ground pressure is going to be the same as a 'Mech of half its mass
The most important is the ability to raise or lower the 'Mech body allowing it to fire from a hull down position, to hunker down behind obstructions, or to rise to fire above them, though the 'Mech doesn't have the unique agility of the Scorpion arc of fire of the turret makes very hard to flank it.
All this makes the Goliath a very good defensive weapon, with its long range weapons, and the ability to take advantage of ground cover, if it doesn't expose its legs, its heavy armor allows it to win fire exchanges with more firepower but less endurance.
The Goliath can be very effective in urban areas, using buildings and ruins as cover, having an easier time crashing through buildings (four legs giving more power than 2), and traversing rubble much easier without the risk of tripping up, and not having to fear as much from the risk of falling into a basement.
Those advantages apply to low level built areas, but even in the maze of a urban canyon the Goliath can be effective,despite the lack of close quarters weapons, by firing down long streets and avenues, wich tend to channel the enemy anyway. The machineguns keep infantry teams away, it only needs some escorts equipped with short range weapons
In conclusion, the Goliath maybe a mediocre assault 'Mech, but it's still a 'Mech to be reckoned with, and used wisely it can be very effective.
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