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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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 Posted: 07-Dec-2004 13:17 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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why, does somebody finally push him out of an airlock in deep space? 
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1921
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2004 18:42 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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On 2004-12-07 13:17, mud wrote:
why, does somebody finally push him out of an airlock in deep space?
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No...
*spoilers below*
But he does get assassinated...and it's noted that he's either outlived or made peace with all of his old enemies...except his sister...
Ruger
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2004 22:50 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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'bout time
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08-Dec-2004 01:05 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Agreed. Good riddance, little traitor.
I've hit a wall in my studies (it's finals week), so I'll rant about Victor for something else to think about.
Problems I have with Victor. First and foremost, why did he join ComStar? Even after the Lyran secession, Victor was without question the Archon-Prince. When he went off to fight the Smoked Jaguars, he left Yvonne as his Regent. While he was in the Clan Homeworlds, Katherine manipulated Yvonne and the people of the FedCom into dumping Yvonne and naming Katherine Regent. Ok.
So Victor comes back. Since Victor is the Archon-Prince, and Yvonne merely the Regent while he's gone, she would have had to step down upon his return. So what changed? As far as I can tell, nothing of consequence changed. All Victor had to do was appear on New Avalon and say "here I am." Katherine, as the legally declared Regent, must now legally step down in favor of the Archon-Prince. If she refuses, then Victor can simply have her forcibly removed, and either arrested or shipped back to Tharkad. And so what does Victor do? He does a little gardening on Luthien, and then joins ComStar. WTF?
The Civil War. When does Victor move to oppose his sister? Not when she's disappearing people. Not in August, with fighting on Solaris VII. Not in November (18th), when fighting on Kathil started. He made his call for war on December 8th, only two days after Arthur is assassinated. Victor only acted when he himself got hurt. That's not really the way of a leader who cares about his people. When Omi Kurita was killed, Victor spent, what? Seven months, at least? Seven months hiding and mourning and whatnot. Because he got hurt. While the war goes on idly; especially on Tikonov, where they fought the whole time and made minmal progress. And don't forget the couple of 'Mech regiments he pulled off of Tikonov, to sit around him and fight for worlds they didn't need while Victor moped about. Again, this is not the degree fortitude you'd expect from someone worthy of the position.
That's it for now. I'd like to say something about the sheer idiocy of leaving the Lyran secession unopposed, but I haven't read any of the books between Blood of Kerensky and Twilight of the Clans. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming that there's some valid reason for that decision, but knowing Victor, I'm probably wasting my doubt.
I'll have to go through my novel reviews, to see if there's anything that I thought of then which hasn't come to mind now.
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"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Dec-2004 18:10 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Victor failed to deal with 'realpolitik' and spent too much time idealizing. I liked him during the first couple of novels, but his mushy headedness lost me toward the end.
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Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Dec-2004 00:07 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Precisely. Victor never really figured out that there was more at stake than just himself, and he never understood that others were prepared to be not nice. And he never figured out how to be not nice himself.
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"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 12-Dec-2004 23:37 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Victor was a great character, the sum of both his parents, highly intelligent, thoughtful, insightful, kind, generous, courageous, capable, and well able to learn from mistakes. All in all the makings of a truly great leader and uniter.
The problem with Victor is not Victor, it is the authors that used him and the fools that dictated the plotline of the universe. In other words, book after book after book where we just kept asking why the hell hasn't he taken out his evil sister YET?
They chose a timeline of events and then stuck to it like the grim reaper keeping an eye on death row. And keeping to the plot and end result meant engaging in more and more unbelievable plot twists to make sure that no matter how good Victor was and how many key figures stood by him, his sister kept winning and taking over the realm so they could have a civil war.
And even then... Victor is doing well, he is winning? NP, kill his wife and suddenly he is depressed and his forces are losing on all fronts to drag things out for another book or two.
Victor was the legal heir to the thrones, did any general exist in the Fedcom who did not know this? So how then did over half of them suddenly start taking orders from little sister? How did the staff in New Avalon not just arrest her instead of handing the freaking throne over to her as soon as she walked through the door?
That plot leading up to the civil war was a square peg, but the hole was round and they ignored that and just hammered away at that peg. Blindly determined to make it fit.
If they wanted the civil war, why not just have evil one move in and take New Avalon by force while Victor is away and then he must come back and rally scattered forces in what becomes a Steiner vs Davion war that leaves them as enemies? And let him take out little sister at some point and some full-blood steiner takes over the Lyrans. And maybe the Kells have to set up their own little country in meantime?
They did the same damned thing to Kai Allard-Liao. He was the uber-good guy, so how did he wind up taking orders from Sun Tzu, wasn't he supposed to take his cousin out if he attacked St. Ives?
The orginal Victor was a great guy, but later on when he started losing thrones, the authors and plot developers just butchered him but by God they freaking made that freaking peg fit into that freaking hole.
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2004-12-12 23:41 ]
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"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 13-Dec-2004 14:14 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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And this, friends, is the reason I refuse to read the books.
It is also the reason I refuse to watch the new editions of Star Wars. (And if I hadn't already invested in the first two, the reason I wouldn't watch the third prequel)
If the authors were any good, we wouldn't have this problem.
I prefer to live in my own little world where Victor grew up, raised by his mother to be an idealist, but never learning the lesson Melissa had learned with Ryan Steiner: just because you are working for the good of the people doesn't mean they'll figure it out, nor does it mean all your followers will do it too.
Katherine was corrupted (I always assumed by Ryan) and launched a coup (as Patch described above). Victor returned, but having not learned the lesson, was unable to unite his house. Victor, only able to pull a draw, withdrew to seclusion with the ComGuards, and passed the torch of idealism to the much more competent Theodore Kurita.
That is, of course, a very twisted view of the Updates, but a plausible one, and I'm sticking to it. The novels can bite me.
And don't get me started on Dark Age. As far as I'm concerned, the History of Battletech ends shortly after Theodore Kurita becomes First Lord of the Star League. There are still loose ends to tie up, but those can be addressed by the players.
It's an RPG, after all. We get to create the world we want. And as the GM, I rule that the authors are idiots and their work does not exist in my universe. This is the Battletech Universe According to ME.
I do the same thing for Star Wars during the Rise of the Empire.
I'm happy to say my players think I'm better at it than George Lucas.
Sorry for the rant. I have strong opinions on this.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5648
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13-Dec-2004 16:38 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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I'm happy to say my players think I'm better at it than George Lucas.
Sorry for the rant. I have strong opinions on this.
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sorry but Star Wars is George Lucas. His dream, his story, and his baby. if he wants to do unexpected things in it, it is his right. people need to either like it or except it, otherwise IMNHO piss off.
[ This Message was edited by: Vagabond on 2004-12-13 17:23 ]
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 13-Dec-2004 19:18 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Quote:
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On 2004-12-13 16:38, Vagabond wrote:
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I'm happy to say my players think I'm better at it than George Lucas.
Sorry for the rant. I have strong opinions on this.
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sorry but Star Wars is George Lucas. His dream, his story, and his baby. if he wants to do unexpected things in it, it is his right. people need to either like it or except it, otherwise IMNHO piss off.
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Star Wars is hardly George Lucas anymore. There have been how many books by how many authors? His universe has been expanded immensley. I am of the opinion that many of the authors are better storytellers than Lucas. They are also much more consistent (but of course, to write in the Star Wars universe, you have to be. Would it kill Lucas to follow his own stringent rules?)
All of that, however, is beside the point. In my game universe, it works out differently. When Lucas wants to enforce his "vision" on me, I have a boot ready for him.
He is free to make bad movies, and I am free to think he has been reduced to a talentless hack and not give him any of my money. And that is a fact, not an opinion, humble or otherwise.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Dec-2004 06:43 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Don't hold back Sabre, Let us know how you really feel...
I love Star Wars, the original trilogy. I've seen them over 1500 times. I've worn thru 3 sets of Video Tapes. Now I have the DVDs....
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 14-Dec-2004 16:51 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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OK, two things.
Star Wars is awesome, and is far too important to be intrusted to George Lucas. He created it, fine and great. Now he needs to keep his hands off. The new movies have sucked as a rule; honestly I think the comics provide the best new Star Wars material anymore.
The real reason I hate Victor:
Same reason I hate the Kell Hounds and Clan Wolf; they're Stackpole's pets. Any faction that comes under that hack's direction any amount of time just becomes rediculous; I dislike Sun-Tzu Liao and Katrina Steiner for the same reason.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 14-Dec-2004 18:36 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Hmmm.
I kind of liked the X-Wing series (also by Stackpole). One more reason not to read the B-Tech books.
Let me keep my illusions.
Queary: The Kell Hounds are mentioned in The Crescent Hawks Inception, so I would think the KH would fairly predate Stackpole. Explanation, someone in the know?
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2004 18:01 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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That is about the solution I used. The plot line matches up to a point.......
I actually have/ had 3 different plot lines running, starting at 3 different times ranging from during the Fall of the League, to a 4th war starting point. Victor did not hesitate with turning Katherine into Alpo in any of the timelines. The timing and methods varied, but in all cases she died before Task Force serpent left.
I haven't had time to see how the jihad would play out on any of them since I haven't had time, so I am basically ignoring the fact for the time being. It is as bad a fabrication as Victors eternal innocence.
I am amazed at the lack of discussion about the Davion-Kurita-Steiner that is floating around out there. Who, incidentally is going to identify with Kurita since he is being raised by his granddaddy Theodore.
_________________
Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2004 22:54 Post subject: RE: What do you think about Victor? |
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Quote:
| And don't get me started on Dark Age. As far as I'm concerned, the History of Battletech ends shortly after Theodore Kurita becomes First Lord of the Star League. There are still loose ends to tie up, but those can be addressed by the players.
It's an RPG, after all. We get to create the world we want. And as the GM, I rule that the authors are idiots and their work does not exist in my universe. This is the Battletech Universe According to ME. |
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Amen for me its the same the universe is decent up till they are (taskforce serpent) on their way back, Its at about that time that it really starts to get annoying and I abandon it alltogether.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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