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Design Preferences
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StarRaven
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PostPosted: 08-Nov-2004 12:08    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Humph. Clanner barbarian.

It is too easy to make good Clan 'Mechs. Just look at my King Crab. That thing'll eat Daishis for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. (Yum.) All my 'Mechs were Clan tech when I first started; and now almost all of them are Inner Sphere, except for the occasional IIC or "look, this Omni can mount an LB20-X."

Warhrawk C!!!

And Erenon: you should probably work on that thing with the Warhawk C. Otherwise you'll have to bring extra pants whenever you go to a game, just in case.

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PostPosted: 08-Nov-2004 18:08    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Yeah i know.. maybe i'll get adult diapers.


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PostPosted: 08-Nov-2004 23:46    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

adult diapers are alittle embarassing. use a rag like a baby's napkin.
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PostPosted: 30-Nov-2004 13:45    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

I know I dug this one up from a month ago but I really like this topic. I'm a mech creating fanatic so here goes.

Generic stuff

- I rarely design clan mechs because it is too easy. Why NOT put XL engines, FF, and Endo steel on a clan mech with 20 double heat sinks? I mean really. So from hereout everything is IS specific.

- I try to design cheaply, this means under 10 million in my book but I also sometimes seek less than 6 million for medium or lighter mechs. Cheaper mechs are cheaper to support and to me this is just as important as anything else.

- I usually only consider XL on fire support mechs. My scout mech's have to make do with Light Engines.

- I almost always use fractional accounting so that I can use fractional ammo counts. Why should I be forced to fill my ammo bins when I don't want to? Who the hell needs 200 MG rounds ... or even 100 of them? I realize level 3 rules tends to be frowned upon but really think about it. Why shouldn't I be able to control my ammo counts??

- I usually design mechs that can fire 100% of their weapons 100% of the time or near to that. I don't like the concept of not using systems on my mechs so I just streamline them. I will admit to consistently breaking this rule on assault mechs as they tend to just be able to carry too many weapons so you have to have weapon sets.

- I abhore the following weapons systems: AC2/AC5 (all varieties), ERPPC, ERLL, Light Gauss, MRM10/20s, and regular AC10/AC20 (LBX and ultra are both just better). I have or will use just about any of the rest of the systems out there (unless I'm forgetting something) but the ones on this list are horrible in my mind. Perhaps if only going level 1 I would use the AC2/5 somewhere ... but not with level 2 tech available. LBXs and Ultras are just better.

- I really like plain old Large lasers. Highly underrated weapon IMHO, as it is the largest weapon that works good at range and in close. An ERPPC is just grossly over-heated, same with the ERLL. The AC10s are the only weapons with comparable properties ... but they weight a lot more and take up a lot more space and require ammo (but are cooler). Nope, for 5 tons, 2 crits, and 8 heat you get 8 damage with a pretty solid range. This rocks. Large lasers fit nicely on any mech that likes to close. Actually one of my favorite custom designs uses Large lasers and LBX10s in tandem for an all around solid medium ranged mech.

- ER lasers are better than pulse lasers. I've gone over this before but a medium ER laser is as good or better than a medium pulse laser at every range except for 1-2. So unless I have a mech that I can guarantee will be in range 1-2 EVERY ROUND ... I go with ER's.

- The standard medium laser is an awesome weapon. People should use it more.

- I like to put ammo in the head if not using Case. It's the safest spot on a mech for it.

- I tend not to use arm weapons, I like having arms for physical combat or as extra torso armor .

- I like putting one jump jet in each leg to help soak up crits.

- When using streaks (and fractional accounting) I almost never use a full ton of ammo, instead I estimate how many rounds I will hit with in a combat and load that much. Usually this is only 6-9 shots per launcher.

- All of my mechs have jump jets. Tactical flexibility is key in my book.
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PostPosted: 30-Nov-2004 21:50    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

i slightly disagree with ERPPCs and ERLLs. I mean if u are just a 25 ton mech trying to find a way to heat someone at long range, the ERLL or ERPPC is definitely a good choice, especially if u sport double heatsinks. No bulky IS LRMs either which are peg to ammo.

however, no one can ever go wrong with old heat efficient weapons. That is why i dig regular PPCs.



P.S. This is real old.
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PostPosted: 30-Nov-2004 22:53    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-11-30 21:50, bladewind wrote:
P.S. This is real old.


Not any more it's not.


The only time I put regular PPCs on a level 2 'Mech is when the chassis can't handle the heat sinks for ERs. That doesn't happen too often, but it has once or twice.

Even with IS tech, the ER PPC is my preferred long range weapon. I despise gauss rifles. One wonders why Clanners even bother with LRMs.



Quote:

On 2004-11-30 13:45, Feral wrote:
- I usually only consider XL on fire support mechs. My scout mech's have to make do with Light Engines.


SL engines are fun in lights, and quite a few mediums. With heavies and assaults it's a tossup between firepower and toughness. I've slowly gone more and more against the XL, but I still use them where appropriate. Besides, haven't you ever put 5M Locusts up against a Warhawk? They just disintegrate when you hit them; loads of fun to watch, even in MegaMek. I killed four, and the fifth one and I killed each other at the same time.

Quote:

- I almost always use fractional accounting so that I can use fractional ammo counts. Why should I be forced to fill my ammo bins when I don't want to? Who the hell needs 200 MG rounds ... or even 100 of them? I realize level 3 rules tends to be frowned upon but really think about it. Why shouldn't I be able to control my ammo counts??


Because I said so, that's why.
I seldom use FA. The ammo per ton is generally good enough that I don't want to change it, even for MGs. And I need 200 rounds of MG ammo. Hell, I've got a 'Mech with 400 rounds of MG ammo.

I only use FA if I want that last bit of armor. Otherwise, I don't bother.

Quote:

- I usually design mechs that can fire 100% of their weapons 100% of the time or near to that. I don't like the concept of not using systems on my mechs so I just streamline them. I will admit to consistently breaking this rule on assault mechs as they tend to just be able to carry too many weapons so you have to have weapon sets.


I usually try to avoid being too heat efficient. I like having long and short ranged weapons, and you can mount more weapons if you mount more heat sinks. Just enough to fire one set or another is great, and if you get in trouble or get an oppurtunity, then you can go full on.

Quote:

- I abhore the following weapons systems: AC2/AC5 (all varieties), ERPPC, ERLL, Light Gauss, MRM10/20s, and regular AC10/AC20 (LBX and ultra are both just better). I have or will use just about any of the rest of the systems out there (unless I'm forgetting something) but the ones on this list are horrible in my mind. [...]


ER PPCs rule, and ERLLs are pretty good. AC/2s and 5s should usually be PPCs. The LBXs are better, but the standard AC/10 and 20 are still pretty good. I despise ultras. Just when you need them most, ::jam::.

Quote:

- I really like plain old Large lasers. Highly underrated weapon IMHO, as it is the largest weapon that works good at range and in close. An ERPPC is just grossly over-heated, same with the ERLL. [...]


StarRaven's Law: Two ER PPC equals 16 DHS. So many bad 'Mechs fail to abide by this law.

LLs have their place, but that place is not usually on my 'Mechs. An ERLL is the same tonnage, and DHS makes it easy to handle them in ones or twos. I think I'm starting to see why level oners often dislike DHS.

Quote:

- ER lasers are better than pulse lasers. I've gone over this before but a medium ER laser is as good or better than a medium pulse laser at every range except for 1-2. [...]


Pulse lasers have their place. The weight of a mdium pulse laser is good if you have free tonnage but are short on crits. But it's true that pulse lasers are pretty short ranged.

Quote:

- The standard medium laser is an awesome weapon. People should use it more.


Yes. All hail the standard medium laser. For the heat of three ERMLs, I can get 2/3s more damage at 3/4s the range. ERs are good if you've got just a few, but standard meds are good if you've got clusters.

Quote:

- I tend not to use arm weapons, I like having arms for physical combat or as extra torso armor .


I like being able to have a wider range of fire with my weapons. Actually, I like to remove LA and hand actuators so I can have flip arms, so I don't need to bother with rear mounted weapons.

Quote:

- When using streaks (and fractional accounting) I almost never use a full ton of ammo, instead I estimate how many rounds I will hit with in a combat and load that much. Usually this is only 6-9 shots per launcher.


I like having 15 shots for my Streak 6. You might end up needing them, and you can always dump the ammo if you think you're about to take an ammo hit. Ammo explosions happen; beyond CASE, an STD engine, and padding, it's just a risk I live with.

Quote:

- All of my mechs have jump jets. Tactical flexibility is key in my book.


Strange rule. I mount jets if they fit the role, but I skip 'em if they don't. Lots of good 'Mech are jetless. I really despise jetted 'Mechs with less than full jump.

Quote:

- I like to put ammo in the head if not using Case. It's the safest spot on a mech for it.


TDB won't let me put explosive ammo in the head.


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PostPosted: 01-Dec-2004 06:50    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Why in the head, so when it goes off, you'll be the first to know???? Or when you're waiting, you could count it?




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PostPosted: 01-Dec-2004 11:26    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Awesome I got responses and good ones.

Ok the ammo in the head is the easiest ... if you are getting critted in your head then you almost always lose your head anyhow. Yes i have seen crits to the head but its usually just getting lopped off ... so I consider it the "safest" place in the mech for ammo that's unprotected.

As for the ER's ... the people I know who like ERPPCs and ERLL are also the types who put more weapons on a mech than it can sink. I understand this philosophy and even sometimes design my mechs like that ... but I usually specialize my mechs to the point that they don't have lots of cross-over weapons so the only weapons they carry are what they need to do their specialty. Long range mechs will have PPCs and LRMs. Short range mechs will have in close weapons and maybe a decent medium range weapon. I just don't like wasting space on mechs and I'd rather just have more armor or more heatsinks than extra unused weapons. But again this is just my style. As I said, often times on Assault mechs you can have full armor AND more weapons than you can sink so I most often go with that philosophy on assaults ... but on lighter mechs I usually just don't find the space to have multiple ranges of weapon systems (at least not mutliple ranges greater than I can sink).

I just don't like paying 15 heat for 10 damage with a measly 1 range increment. I mean sure they get rid of the minimum range but if you are using an ERPPC within range 3 you are really wasting heat ... that's 5 medium lasers instead of that one PPC. Nah I'll take the regular PPC and mount other weapons. Again this is probably just more preference, but whenever I'm thinking about weapon systems to use in close I always compare them to the medium laser ... because the medium laser is the end-all close range weapon as far as I'm concerned .

But good call on the light mech ... its very true that light mechs often have way more heatsinks than they can use.

As for the large laser ... it just fits very well into my build style. When I build mechs to be heat efficient who's responsibility will be a medium ranged all around mech ... the large laser is first on the list. It has decent range, decent damage, acceptable heat efficiency, and no minimum. No other inner sphere weapon can say that. So on a multi-purpose mech the large laser is the first tool in the box for me.

As for jump jets ... nothing is more important in battletech than mobility (as far as Im concerned) ... and unless all you play on is the open plains maps jump jets are the only way to move in this game. Heavy forests and mountains will pretty much mean a shadow hawk is just as mobile as a mongoose. People often don't realize just how slow moving through anything but open ground is in this game. Add in the fact that you get the free facing change which really matters to the slower mechs (3/5 or 4/6) ... yeah jumps are on my mechs to stay. 20-100 tons, they all have jumps.

Oh and why the hate on the Gauss Rifle? I can understand if it receives the same hate as pulse lasers (meaning people feel it breaks the game) ... but the weapon system is incredible as far as I'm concerned. It's just gross really. Insane range, insane damage, insane heat. Not much to complain about with a gauss rifle. Yeah it weighs alot but it better damn well weigh a lot considering what it does. Statistically I love the weapon, but I understand how people would not like it since it is kind of over-powered. I actually don't use it on a lot of designs ... but I do have a modified gunslinger with 2 gausses and 2 large lasers which is probably one of my favorite mechs to play and maim people with. Most mechs just can't deal with 15 damage at that range ... not even assaults. Yeah its an awesome if not broken device. which dovetails nicely with the larger energy weapons.

hehe ok that's enough. I love this topic btw ... it's neat to see how other people think.

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PostPosted: 01-Dec-2004 14:44    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-12-01 06:50, Sir Henry wrote:
Why in the head, so when it goes off, you'll be the first to know???? Or when you're waiting, you could count it?





Both. I don't trust those damned internal sensors. I say that they're conspiring against me. I want to count it, and I want to know when it goes off too.

But mostly to keep me warm in colder environments. If you go to New syrtis, you'll want your ammo in the head.

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PostPosted: 01-Dec-2004 15:01    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

u dont need any more ammo in ure head all the crits are full










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PostPosted: 01-Dec-2004 15:45    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

ER LLs and standard LLs really aren't my thing, so I don't have a rea setup for them. I use an ERLL wherever I'd use an ER PPC but don't have the tonnage.

I prefer PPCs to LRMs for firesupport; slightly longer range, no min, and they don't explode. They're just a great all around weapon. I prefer the CER PPC since it does more damage, but the IS version's weakness has never bothered me much. If I've got the heat capacity, I'll use an ER PPC. Now that I think of it, the ER PPC is probably my most common weapon. It's just great anywhere

I think the decision between sinking all weapons or just some is more style than anything else. You see it as wasteful to have weapons you can't fire due to heat. If I have two distinct weapons groups, I see all those heat sinks as a waste of tonnage, which could go towards something else.

It's true that mobility is important. That's why 'Mechs have legs, after all. I just thought it interesting to have jets on every design. Jets are nice, but only if the design is otherwise finished, or of they're part of it's purpose. On some designs, those jets could be something like heat sinks.

It's not that the gauss rifle is munchy, I just don't like it. Mainly it's the explosiveness and the massive weight. A gauss explosion may do less damage than an ammo explosion, but it can still be enough to take out a side torso, and if you've got an XL, goodbye. And a gauss is so many crits, so it increases the odds of getting hit. And for not much more than the weight of a gauss and ammo, I can mount a pair of ER PPCs and heat sinks.

Quote:

On 2004-12-01 11:26, Feral wrote:
But good call on the light mech ... its very true that light mechs often have way more heatsinks than they can use.


Huh? Is this something I said, or someone else? I never mentioned lights and heat sinks. And I'm not so sure that that's true. My lights are nearly all energy armed, so they tend to really push their heat sinks.

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PostPosted: 01-Dec-2004 17:17    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-12-01 15:45, StarRaven wrote:
ER LLs and standard LLs really aren't my thing, so I don't have a rea setup for them. I use an ERLL wherever I'd use an ER PPC but don't have the tonnage.

I prefer PPCs to LRMs for firesupport; slightly longer range, no min, and they don't explode. They're just a great all around weapon. I prefer the CER PPC since it does more damage, but the IS version's weakness has never bothered me much. If I've got the heat capacity, I'll use an ER PPC. Now that I think of it, the ER PPC is probably my most common weapon. It's just great anywhere

I think the decision between sinking all weapons or just some is more style than anything else. You see it as wasteful to have weapons you can't fire due to heat. If I have two distinct weapons groups, I see all those heat sinks as a waste of tonnage, which could go towards something else.

It's true that mobility is important. That's why 'Mechs have legs, after all. I just thought it interesting to have jets on every design. Jets are nice, but only if the design is otherwise finished, or of they're part of it's purpose. On some designs, those jets could be something like heat sinks.

It's not that the gauss rifle is munchy, I just don't like it. Mainly it's the explosiveness and the massive weight. A gauss explosion may do less damage than an ammo explosion, but it can still be enough to take out a side torso, and if you've got an XL, goodbye. And a gauss is so many crits, so it increases the odds of getting hit. And for not much more than the weight of a gauss and ammo, I can mount a pair of ER PPCs and heat sinks.

Quote:

On 2004-12-01 11:26, Feral wrote:
But good call on the light mech ... its very true that light mechs often have way more heatsinks than they can use.


Huh? Is this something I said, or someone else? I never mentioned lights and heat sinks. And I'm not so sure that that's true. My lights are nearly all energy armed, so they tend to really push their heat sinks.



Yeah the light quote was directed at someone else. The point of that is that it's not inconceivable to have a 30 ton really fast mech with an ERPPC and maybe an ER medium laser or something like that as it's total armament. Sure it might be better off with a bunch of closer ranged weapons but I think I would feel safer in a scout mech that didn't have to ever get within range 10 of it's enemy ... at those ranges is where your super mobility tends to matter less.

As for the ERPPC vs LRMs issue ... it really is tough. I'm a big fan or LRM20s w/A4's ... but they are pretty heavy when all is considered, however supporting two ERPPCs has a non-trivial tonnage requirement in heatsinks and critspace as well. I tend to have diverse weapon selections so my fire support mechs usually sport a combination of standard PPCs and LRMs ... like my modified archer with 2 LRM15s w/A-4s and a standard PPC. All that sneaks in under 20 heat and does a lot of damage.

But yeah I agree its mostly style.

As for the gauss ... hehe ... I look at the gauss rifle as more of a fire support weapon anyhow, albeit a terrifying one. Yes two ERPPCs weigh about the same, but the gauss makes 1/30th of the heat. The best way to use a gauss (imho) is to combine it with large energy weapons as well ... which pretty much means you are talking assaults anyhow. Depending on your functionality, pairing a gauss (or two) with a couple of PPCs or large lasers is a really nice way to spend your heat and deliver traumatic damage at range.

I guess my issue with the ERPPC is I just like the regular PPC better. I always ask myself ... is 1 extra range/bracket worth 5 heat? Because that's what it boils down to for me almost every time and I guess the answer almost always comes out as no. That's a preference thing.
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PostPosted: 02-Dec-2004 03:58    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

1. Im a major advocate for long range weapons on light mechs especially the later designs. Since u have say 10 DHS as standard, why not strap on an ERPPC ? It sure is easier to shoot from long range than walk up in front of an assault toting an AC20 and its variants.

2. I prefer to design my weapons with range brackets in mind, so i often have multiple sets of different weapons. I always believe a mech is the most efficient when you fire them withnin their weapon range brackets thus reducing overall heat buildup. For that price of running close to a thin red line on some designs, i have lots of big guns to blow holes with.

3. Jumpjets are sort of odd to me, i dont like em. Period. However, i do believe firesupport units and brawlers can make use of the added mobility which is where i put em on my mech.

4. The Medium laser arguably the holy relic of the IS, will always appear in cluster of 3 - 4 when i intend to use em. ER is nice, only if the mech is very slow.

5. Large lasers, another extremely effective workhorse although i dont really dig em. I usually more inclined to the ER variants. The heat generated might be more, but nothing DHS cant handle especially for a light mech armed with only a few weapons.

6. Gauss rifle, cheesy or not, i love em. Its one of the very few weapons the IS have to rival the Clan ER PPCs and the Clan Gauss rifle. Clan gauss rifles are a joke though, since the Clan ERPPC is much better.

7. LB-10x and 20x autocannons are staple on my close range designs. The normal AC is fine too, at least it works. UACs are ok but if im having a bad day, i avoid em. I hate the jams. RACs are munchy with a TC which is why i avoid em like hell.

8. TC nono except for fluff reasons. Sure its good but it detracts from the gunner's skill. Anyone can aim with a TC.

9. Large lasers and PPCs are always good in pairs

10. Take a look at my armory. Easier to see how i design mechs anyway.

My armory


[ This Message was edited by: bladewind on 2004-12-02 04:00 ]
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PostPosted: 02-Dec-2004 13:05    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-12-02 03:58, bladewind wrote:
1. Im a major advocate for long range weapons on light mechs especially the later designs. Since u have say 10 DHS as standard, why not strap on an ERPPC ? It sure is easier to shoot from long range than walk up in front of an assault toting an AC20 and its variants.


I'll have to try that. I tend towards mediums, heavies, and assaults. (Who doesn't like assaults?) Lights I design mostly as scouts and elint platforms. Most of my tonnage is taken up by electronics, so I usually end up packing on a few medium lasers and some jets; not much room for anything else.

Quote:

2. I prefer to design my weapons with range brackets in mind, so i often have multiple sets of different weapons. I always believe a mech is the most efficient when you fire them withnin their weapon range brackets thus reducing overall heat buildup. For that price of running close to a thin red line on some designs, i have lots of big guns to blow holes with.


Yes.

Quote:

3. Jumpjets are sort of odd to me, i dont like em. Period. However, i do believe firesupport units and brawlers can make use of the added mobility which is where i put em on my mech.


I like jets on urban machines, or on lights and mediums. I'll occasionally cut down on firepower to add/increase jets, because they're nice to have a round when you need them.

Quote:

4. The Medium laser arguably the holy relic of the IS, will always appear in cluster of 3 - 4 when i intend to use em. ER is nice, only if the mech is very slow.



No. This is not arguable. It is gospel truth.
The medium laser is the most effective weapon in the game, especially in clusters. Only the LB20-X, CER PPC, and Streak 6 can compete with a cluster of medium lasers.

Quote:

6. Gauss rifle, cheesy or not, i love em. Its one of the very few weapons the IS have to rival the Clan ER PPCs and the Clan Gauss rifle. Clan gauss rifles are a joke though, since the Clan ERPPC is much better.



Yes. Clan gauss rifles suck next to the ER PPC. Especially with a single gauss, you can put in a single PPC with HS and have it work out much better.

Quote:

7. LB-10x and 20x autocannons are staple on my close range designs. The normal AC is fine too, at least it works. UACs are ok but if im having a bad day, i avoid em. I hate the jams. RACs are munchy with a TC which is why i avoid em like hell.



Mostly 'cause I'm Davion, but I really like RACs. Munchy they may be, but I still like them. Normal and LBX ACs are fine, but not Ultras. I am perpetually unlucky. I failed my first ever MASC roll, and got a 2 the first time I double fired an Ultra.

Quote:

10. Take a look at my armory. Easier to see how i design mechs anyway.

My armory




Armory looks cool. I like the March Lord a lot. That's really what a 3067 front-line 'Mech should be like, even for a Successor State. ES, FF, and DHS, but cut costs with a standard engine. It also makes you more survivable, so you can have fun chewing on Kuritan Atlases with their XL engines.

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Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837

PostPosted: 02-Dec-2004 20:01    Post subject: RE: Design Preferences Reply to topic Reply with quote

I'm a 3025 kind of guy with a little 3050 in me.

Overall preference: ranged combat. LRMs are good, but I prefer the PPC. Gause Rifle, to volatile, AC/2 is a plink gun. The AC/5 or 10 is nice.

For close fighting (if I must) the Death Wheel. Five medium lasers clustered in the torso.

As a general rule, I'm a heat-phobe and a speed freak. However, I can live with a mech that can fire two of its three range incriments without overheating and still run (it can gain a little heat that way).

I like my mechs well armored, but I will trade armor for speed and manueverability (particularly for fire-support mechs). Jumpjets are a nice plus, but not a necessary one.

I don't like dead-weight weapons. That is, weapons that I cannot conceivably fire all at the same time or weapons that are so out of line with the rest of the weapons suite that they are outliers. I would rather trade the weapons for armor and speed.

I am now officially a fan of the Inferno round.
I put an SRM-2 with Inferno on every custom mech that is intended to get close.
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