|
|
|
Mordel's Bar & Grill |
|
  |
» |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
|
 Posted: 27-Jun-2004 12:08 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
  |
|
It doesn't really matter which order you roll the dice in. The fact of the matter is that all of the RESULTS are applied simultaneously.
|
|
| Back to top |
 
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 17:47 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-27 10:32, Gangrene wrote:
I use method 1. I think you are taking the application of "simultaneous" to an extreme. Of course not every shot will be made at the exact same time. Their has always been an underlying assumption in my games that the order in which a player calls their shots is the order in which the made their shots. Plus I don't know any players who like to see their shots get wasted.
|
|
The shots are resolved in the order in which they are declared, but the effects of those shots all happen simultaneously....
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
  
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 17:50 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-27 12:05, -Mud wrote:
Yeah, the same guy who gave us the now infamous ruling about search-lights on vehicles, mixed ammo on vehicles, and now this one. That's three strikes; he's outta there. You'd think the line developer would at least be required to be aware of the rules of the game.
|
|
His ruling about mixed ammo on vehicles was correct. And because it was correct he's changed the written rules to allow for multiple ammo loads on vehicles.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 17:51 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-27 10:26, Gangrene wrote:
According to Randall's ruling.
Although fire is supposed to be simultaneous, I have always given damage transfer rules precedence.
|
|
You playing it that way is all the confirmation I need to know Randall's ruling is incorrect.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 17:52 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
#1 should be the correct way--you resolve the all damage for a shot before moving onto the next shot...
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 19:17 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
That was uncalled for.
_________________
Gangrene
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 19:47 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-27 19:17, Gangrene wrote:
That was uncalled for.
|
|
Maybe.
Hell, it's probably likely.
But it was all the confirmation I needed...
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 20:01 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Alright, this ruling opens up a damn Pandora's Box!
BMRr P. 14: "7. Damage from weapons attacks takes effect. Players record damage as attacks are resolved, but this does not affect the unit's ability to attack in this phase................At the end of the phase, all damage takes effet immediately and players must make any Piloting Skill Rolls required according to the effects of weapons attacks.
"AT THE END OF THE PHASE"
--This supports, Mordel's #2 reasoning!
____________________________________
BMRr P. 35: "TORSO DESTRUCTION, If a BattleMechs' right or left torso has all of its internal structure destroyed, the corresponding arm (in the case of Four-legged(Quad) 'Mechs, the corresponding front leg) is blown off immediately and can sustain no further damage......."
This is the problem. They left out :"...in subsequent phases, or turns".
Because if you follow this logic that it happens immidiately, then logic dictates you go to:
BMRr P.35 LEG DESTRUCTION, When a Battlemech loses one leg, either through a critical hit or.......the Battlemech automatically falls...."
And go to:
BMRr P. 83 LEG DAMAGE, "A single destroyed leg immediately causes a quad to fall......"
As it is automatic and immediate, it does not require a piloting check roll at the end of the weapons attack phase, as we all know that's when you do them.
Here's the catch, I'm resolving fire, I destroy the left torso on a quad, the mech immediately falls, possibley changing facing (?), now all subsequent attacks from me or others have to take this facing into account STILL in the Weapons attack phase.....Bull!@!The Mech could now not even be in someone's Line-Of-Sight because of being prone in a phase where they were originally upright!
Yes, I know some of you will say Quads are "special case rules" and have to be agreed upon, but when they are, does this change the entire way the Weapons attack phase is resolved?-Hell no!
This ruling is frigged up and they should fix it as I said above or just rebuke it.
Please, do not make the order in which weapon's fire/Criticals are resolved more important than they already are. IE the players who wisely hit with the big guns first then pepper spray with SRMs for Crit-Seeking. Other wise they will have to come up with another chart to determine exact order of weapons resolutions based on Balistic v Energy relative to distance between firing mechs, blah blah blah blah blah
BMRr P. 35: "TORSO DESTRUCTION, 
_________________
"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 20:24 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-27 20:01, Horhiro wrote:
"AT THE END OF THE PHASE"
--This supports, Mordel's #2 reasoning!
|
|
Ugh, I deleted the wrong part...oh well, work with me here 
It actually supports both of Mordel's possibilites...which I suppose could be considered part of the problem.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 22:48 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
True, not every shot will be made at the same time. However, I think that the time difference between weapons' discharge is very much shorter than the time between the first weapon to sever a limb from the body and the limb to drop from the area the limb is supposed to be in, hence out of logical targeting area for that limb.
For instance the RA is damaged and the RT is damaged. The opponent fires 4 medium lasers. The first hits the RT and removes the last few structure, hence destroying the torso. The following two lasers hit in other locations, say LL and LA. The fourth hits in the RA. The time between first and fourth laser shots is much shorter than the time of torso destruction and the RA dropping to the ground. Gravity is good but not that fast.
The firing player would want the RA to not exist as of the results of the first laser are determined. The defending player would want the arm to count as a viable target to minimize damage to the rest of his mech. Rules can be interpreted in a few ways by people wanting different results. However, simultanious means simultanious. It does not mean in an order or one after the other. It means at the same time. Period. Agrue with Webster's if you want. 
_________________
If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
| Posted: 27-Jun-2004 23:17 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
This is mostly just for my own sanity, but when I've GMed Battletech, we compute damage for each shot as it is made and mark off the slots (I assume most people do this just to minimize the math, but I've met people who do all damage as a lump at the end).
However, the "effect" of the damage is not felt until after combat, so even if a limb is destroyed, the weapons on the arm can fire this round. I even let people puch, but maybe I shouldn't.
The exception to this is the 2 and 12 critical hits. If a crit is rolled without doing damage to the Internal Structure, I allow that crit to stand imediately. (I figure it adds a certain ammount of realism that a lucky shot that takes off the head could stop a mech in mid-shot).
But then, I'm also the GM who gradually destroys weapons due to critical hits rather than knocking them out all at once.
Hey, as long as the Precentor Martial doesn't bring his rulebook to my Friday Night game he can think whatever he wants, but in my room, I am God, the Devil, and all the people in between.
M"SD"H
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 06:21 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
We always said that the Damage was done as a whole. If three shots to the arm and three shot to the Torso were assesed and the second shot tore the Torso off the hits to the arm would still hit the arm. It may be blown off, but it still takes the damage whether it's on the mech or flying thru the air. If that is the case then the arm hits should miss, because what was once was there when fired, now is gone.
If that's how Randall feels then shouldn't energy weapon hit instantly and then Ballistics hits and then Missles, Due to the speed difference.
You can't have it both ways, it's either all at once or it's not and what you thought were hit were misses due to the arm no longer being there.
---However we are venturing very close to FASA Physics here..... 
[ This Message was edited by: Sir Henry on 2004-06-29 06:11 ]
_________________
Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
|
| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 09:16 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Let me wade it this quagmire a bit. I have always subscribed to the notion that weapons not fire simultaneously unless an Alpha Strike is called. This just goes to reason that an AC/5 has a different firing speed than an AC/10, than a PPC, than a laser and so on and so on. Therefore, although the combat phase is simultaneous, I have always assigned damage inflicted per weapon. Using the 2 medium lasers as an example, if the first did damage and rolled a crit resulting in the arm being blown/melted off, the following weapon would then hit that torso. In my opinion, a crit is a catastrophic event and should be treated as such. This does not prevent the defending player from using the effected weapons on the arm in this combat phase. However, there could be no physical attack with that limb.
Now, this may be slower than others, but I find it more accurately reflects combat and its effects. Thus, I guess I follow Method #1 as described by Mordel.
_________________
"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 10:49 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-28 09:16, Havoc~Ronin wrote:
Let me wade it this quagmire a bit. I have always subscribed to the notion that weapons not fire simultaneously unless an Alpha Strike is called. This just goes to reason that an AC/5 has a different firing speed than an AC/10, than a PPC, than a laser and so on and so on. Therefore, although the combat phase is simultaneous, I have always assigned damage inflicted per weapon. Using the 2 medium lasers as an example, if the first did damage and rolled a crit resulting in the arm being blown/melted off, the following weapon would then hit that torso. In my opinion, a crit is a catastrophic event and should be treated as such. This does not prevent the defending player from using the effected weapons on the arm in this combat phase. However, there could be no physical attack with that limb.
|
|
If it were supposed to work the way you describe, then the turn phasing would be very important. In another words, as each weapon fires, its damage takes effect immediately, therefore, the arm that is removed by the AC20, is no longer available to fire when its owner's turn comes up. It would make the game more like a Star Fleet Battles type, where the phasing is very important.
I believe that for simplicity, the designers set up the phase based turn structure, and decided that everything takes effect at the end of each phase.
At the end of weapon phase, all damage takes effect, and arms fall off, mechs fall down.. etc..
At the end of physical attack phase, all physical damage takes effect.
When you start screwing with the phased based aspects of the game, you make it inconsistent.
Pin
_________________
"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
|
| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 12:15 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
|
|
Let me clarify... all combat declared at the beginning of the phase takes place, no matter is limbs are blown off, weapons destroyed, etc... so if my mech's arm gets blown off by by oponent, the damage is reflected, but I can still return fire with whatever weapon system was in that arm (as declared at the beginning of the combat phase).
_________________
"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| |
» |
All times are GMT-04:00 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
