|
|
|
Mordel's Bar & Grill |
|
  |
» |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
|
 Posted: 19-Feb-2004 11:42 Post subject: RE: Heads |
  |
|
| uhh, if I hit somebody with a Gauss rifle 36 times, he'd better fall, head or no head.
|
|
| Back to top |
 
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 12:01 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-19 11:42, -Mud wrote:
uhh, if I hit somebody with a Gauss rifle 36 times, he'd better fall, head or no head.
|
|
Right on Mud!
Also, as it stands there are only 4 weapons types that can knock off the head in 1 hit:
Clan ERPPC, Gauss (Normal and Heavy), And Class 20 AC's (Ultra, Normal, and LB-X using slugs) so it isnt that bad. Especially since other than the PPC they are very heavy weapons, and the PPC makes a lot of heat. You only complain because too many people make custom designs loaded with gauss rifles and PPC's
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
 
|
Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 12:58 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
(Also, the mech already has to rely on a heavy amount of sensor input in order to walk. I doubt most mechs offer a view of the mech's feet other than that offered by a sensor, and pilots do not have the time to watch each mech's step. - Gangrene)
Here is a question Gangrene. Do you watch your feet when you walk? The last time I checked, wven when I am running, dancing, fighting in mideval armor.. etc I do not need to watch my feet in order to move. So why would the Mechwarrior need to see the feet in order to move them. That in itself is not a valid argument for just using sensors.
As far as I am concerned, for every lucky head shot my opponent gets on me, I have an equal chance of getting that same shot on him. In fact, in my years of playing this game I have been lucky enough to beat the odds on head shots. I have killed more than my fair share of mechs with head shots, so why complain about a good thing?
_________________
Festina Lente!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 13:06 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-19 12:58, Oafman wrote:
(Also, the mech already has to rely on a heavy amount of sensor input in order to walk. I doubt most mechs offer a view of the mech's feet other than that offered by a sensor, and pilots do not have the time to watch each mech's step. - Gangrene)
Here is a question Gangrene. Do you watch your feet when you walk? The last time I checked, wven when I am running, dancing, fighting in mideval armor.. etc I do not need to watch my feet in order to move. So why would the Mechwarrior need to see the feet in order to move them. That in itself is not a valid argument for just using sensors.
As far as I am concerned, for every lucky head shot my opponent gets on me, I have an equal chance of getting that same shot on him. In fact, in my years of playing this game I have been lucky enough to beat the odds on head shots. I have killed more than my fair share of mechs with head shots, so why complain about a good thing?
|
|
You nailed it Oaf.
Who don't love it when they are playing a campaign and in opening shots take the head off a Daishi Widowmaker (or something else equally niceness) and end up getting to keep it as salvage? I love it the way it is.
Also back to the phsycological effects.
A pilot who is in a head cockpit knows they can die in an instant to a good/lucky shot. A torso mounted cockpit would be more likely to give a warrior an invincibility complex, and enough warriors get them as it is! Look at Xander Barjas. Now that man was nutso. Besides, a roll of 2 gets you a crit anyways, and if its CT, oops, we hit the cockpit. Still decent death chance. I'll keep my head thank you.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 14:39 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-18 20:20, Gangrene wrote:
Your rules are okay. They seem more of a stop-gap measure than a true fix.
|
|
*grumbles* Here I bother to think of a rule to satisfy you and others that think like you and you call it a stopgap.
Stopgap is what I do in my 3025 redesigns, just add one extra point of armor to designs that are notorioulsy well armored.
After all, in 3025 setting it doesn't matter whether you have 10 or 15 points of armor in the head, when a single AC/20 hit would behead your 'Mech. And you don't take mulitiple hits to the head often, so 10 points suffices to avoid bbeing killed by the freak shot of a powerful weapon like a PPC or AC/10. Why armor it more? Most pilots would retire from the field given the chance if they have been rattled by a hit to the head. That's God way of telling you to take a break 
Quote:
|
I don't agree with your reasoning on the value of the head. You state that the main reason for a head is the viewports,
|
|
Not exactly, I said that heads are just a solution to the problem of pilot placement, it's not the optimal one, but an expedient one. Yes, pilots are more exposed, but on the other hand, they have better chances of survival if the engine or ammo burns and/or explodes. Situational awareness is more important than what you think, even now tank commanders still prefer to ride with the hatches open to get a better view.
You know, in battleships they had the same problem, the hull and the gun turrets might be heavily armored, but it only took a lucky hit on the bridge or the gunnery control towers to reduce the ship to little more that a floating target. But then again, that was rare.
And we do have to take into consideration that 'Mechs being humanoid, the head location makes it easier to pilot the thing. More instinctive , and the head being perched on top of the 'Mech, imbalances are feel more acutely giving the pilot the chance of correcting them before they get too great and falls.
So I don't think heads are lame, just a compromise.
And yes, you can go with a more advanced 'Mech design, non humanoid and with the pilot in a torso mounted cockpit, from the Locust to the Marauder , it's more expensive and it has it's share of problems as well, but afford more protection.
However, I agree with you that the rules of Torso Mounted cockpits in Max Tech need to be modified, as they are written now, they look like the guy that wrote them was thinking in modifying a humanoid 'Mech to put the pilot in the torso, not to design specifically the frame around that concept, like the Archer
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 14:49 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
That was very well thought out Vampire, both your original post and that reply. But also, Marauder and the like isnt a true torso mounted cockpit, it's just a thrust forward head instead of on top of the neck, more like an animal than a human. However the head is still out there and exposed. the CT is just behind, above, below, and to both sides of it. The head on these types are more "beak like" as someone once said about the Mad Cat.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 15:19 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
WOW someone agrees with me on something. hehe
But seriously, if you do not want to get hit in the head, don't set yourself up where they get easy shots. If they cannot hit you then they cannot hit your head. Otherwise, just stand there and take it like man with the rest of us. (this statement is made completly in jest of course.)
_________________
Festina Lente!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 16:14 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-19 15:19, Oafman wrote:
WOW someone agrees with me on something. hehe
But seriously, if you do not want to get hit in the head, don't set yourself up where they get easy shots. If they cannot hit you then they cannot hit your head. Otherwise, just stand there and take it like man with the rest of us. (this statement is made completly in jest of course.)
|
|
*Takes it like a man--Dies fighting*
Seriously though Oaf, you had good reasoning behind your thinking and I'm liable to agree with that as often as I can, if it is practical.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 18:15 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-19 14:49, ralgith wrote:
That was very well thought out Vampire, both your original post and that reply.
|
|
Thank you! I do try to put thought in my ideas before posting them,.
Quote:
|
But also, Marauder and the like isnt a true torso mounted cockpit,However the head is still out there and exposed. the CT is just behind, above, below, and to both sides of it.
|
|
Let's clarify. Torso Mounted cockpit for me is not a cockpit completely buried deep inside the 'Mech like in a Dreadnought from WH40k or some anime. That kind of cockpit would be unworkable with Battletech normal technology (excluding Protomechs and all that clan virtual imaging crap)
For me, if the 'Mech cockpit is not in the head, it's a torso mounted cockpit, you just gave the definition that comes in the TRO 3025
The Archer is one of the few BattleMechs whose cockpit is located beneath the central torso. This obviously gives the pilot a battlefield perspective quite different from most normal cockpit positions. Armor protection is still about the same as in other heavy 'Mechs, however, as the torso armor belt is located above the cockpit area, protecting the gyro mechanism and the VOX 280 engine unit.
Of course the cockpit is still a vulnerable spot, but that is what you have the Floating Critical roll in Maximum Tech. Your pilot can still be killed even if the torso armor is not breached.
There are exceptions though. For example, the Jenner it's non-humanoid in shape, but the cockpit cupola counts as a head, not a torso mounted cockpit ( you are reffered to my site for the in-depth explanation of that set up)
Ah, and one thing more about head armor. I think the solution I proposed is a good fix when you are playing Lvl 2 with lots of Clan PPCs and Gauss Rifles and other headhunter weapons. In Lvl 1 play, it's enough with the simple expedient of allowing 10 points maximum armor on some designs, placing more armor than that is a waste, though I would put 15 points on the head of the Atlas anyway. But if you think heads are too exposed, there are quite a few 'Mechs with torso mounted cockpits. I think Gangrene, that you need to accept that part of the challenge and fun of playing Battletech is that some things are as they are, not as we wish they were 
*yawn* Torso mounted cockpits can wait, I have to read the book again to see what was wrong with them.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 19:11 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
how about just allow a armor point bonus depending on weight class. IE 9pts max for a light, with medium getting 10 pts, heavy 11pts, and assault 12pts. This would allow mech warriors a chance of survival, but still put a mech out of play.
MW rules equate 1 pt of weapon damage to 10 of damage to a MW's body, so a tough mw in an assault would maybe survive a gauss slug. A common weapon at that weight class.
A light mech generally doesn't always survive a 10-15 point hit anywhere, so a 10 point hit to the head should take the warrior out of the fight. Wound him bad, but not always kill him.
An assault mech takes multiple 15-20 point hits to kill, so at least allow the pilot a chance of surviving 1 hit doing 15pts.
That would still preserve the "golden BB" but allow for a bit less lethality to campaign continuity.
It also matches the fluff in the novels
_________________
Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 19:59 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
That is an interesting take, except that the head would need more internal structure to hold the extra armor w/out crumpling in on itself and killing the pilot anyways.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 20:37 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-19 14:39, Vampire wrote:
*grumbles* Here I bother to think of a rule to satisfy you and others that think like you and you call it a stopgap.
|
|
Look at it this way: "stopgap" isn't bad, its just not as extreme as what I want. I did say they are better than the rules in place.
Quote:
|
After all, in 3025 setting it doesn't matter whether you have 10 or 15 points of armor in the head, when a single AC/20 hit would behead your 'Mech. And you don't take mulitiple hits to the head often, so 10 points suffices to avoid bbeing killed by the freak shot of a powerful weapon like a PPC or AC/10. Why armor it more? Most pilots would retire from the field given the chance if they have been rattled by a hit to the head. That's God way of telling you to take a break
|
|
Heads were okay in the 3025 setting because players expected the general designs to be quirkey and not optimized. Plus if you bought into the decline-of-technology idea it made some sense to have low cost, low complexity engineering measures like heads. But in an advanced setting it doesn't strike me as being correct.
Quote:
|
Not exactly, I said that heads are just a solution to the problem of pilot placement, it's not the optimal one, but an expedient one. Yes, pilots are more exposed, but on the other hand, they have better chances of survival if the engine or ammo burns and/or explodes. Situational awareness is more important than what you think, even now tank commanders still prefer to ride with the hatches open to get a better view.
|
|
I just think that situational awareness can be just as easily attained by 3050 sensor technology than what can be attained by having a nice view.
Quote:
|
However, I agree with you that the rules of Torso Mounted cockpits in Max Tech need to be modified, as they are written now, they look like the guy that wrote them was thinking in modifying a humanoid 'Mech to put the pilot in the torso, not to design specifically the frame around that concept, like the Archer
|
|
Yeah, they aren't very good.
_________________
Gangrene
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 20:55 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-02-19 12:58, Oafman wrote:
Here is a question Gangrene. Do you watch your feet when you walk? The last time I checked, wven when I am running, dancing, fighting in mideval armor.. etc I do not need to watch my feet in order to move. |
|
Which are probably done on largely flat, stable surfaces. Mechs are ATV's. Try doing your medieval fighting in a shallow river filled with rocks.
You overlooked one fundamental aspect of the mech: it is not a direct physical extension of the pilot and does not provide the plethora of tactile feedback offered by your own body (which your body has been tuning itself to for however long you've been alive). Neurohelmets are for balance, they do not give the pilot the impression that the mech is his body (clan EI set aside here).
Quote:
| So why would the Mechwarrior need to see the feet in order to move them? |
|
I didn't say they do, I said they don't because there is a subsystem in place to take care of it that is dependent upon the mechs own sensors. If those sensors or that subsystem goes down the mech will be inoperable.
In the case that this subsystem did not exist it would be necessary for the mechwarrior to watch each step. Moving an indepentent machine is not like moving your own body.
_________________
Gangrene
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 20:57 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
That point I cannot dispute.
_________________
Gangrene
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 22:02 Post subject: RE: Heads |
|
|
You never seem to have a reply for the Pshyce side of this Gangrene, you can't justify your arguments against it. But Vampire did do a good job on her rules.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| |
» |
All times are GMT-04:00 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
