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Steelfang
3rd Bn, The Winchester Rifles
Major
Joined: 18-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 100
Location: United States
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 Posted: 18-Dec-2003 06:36 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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Heck, I would take the Javelin in the city. Load up on some infernos and outmanuever the Urbie until you can drop Napalm-filled warheads all over its sorry hide.
_________________
You have to question the sanity of anyone who claims that history is filled with honor and moral deeds. either the man is a lunatic or too stupid to understand what historians throughout the ages have been trying to say.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Dec-2003 07:07 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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On 2003-12-18 06:36, Deadeye wrote:
Heck, I would take the Javelin in the city. Load up on some infernos and outmanuever the Urbie until you can drop Napalm-filled warheads all over its sorry hide.
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?
Why would this hurt the Urby?
11 heat sinks. 6 heat from an inferno, 3 from it's AC, 1 from it's SL, it can fire both it's weapons and walk, and not gain any heat.
While an inferno/HE SRM combo makes sense on the Javelin, I don't see how it's particularly useful in a Urby - Jav matchup.
Paul
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Dec-2003 07:33 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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On 2003-12-17 22:49, AWAD wrote:
Javelin is a great medium to light vehicle or wounded Mech hunter.
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Definitely.
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The Javelin would have the advantage. In a Duel the movement is too much. I can move in when I win initiative and move out when I loose.
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And every time you'll face the Urby's weapons.
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I actually think the Urbie is more trouble in the city than in the open versus a Javelin. In the open range becomes a factor and the Urbie may have some decent shots to hit it with.
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True.
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Also the Urbie is not that well armored, 2 SRM 6s do pack a wallop. Yes first round or two is sand paper, but then it gets in. So Javelin in 2 out of three type ratio.
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I don't think the ratio is that severe. The advantage of a city is that the Jav won't have trees to help supply cover.
Also, that armor will prob hold up a bit longer than that, barring some grouping.
However, the Jav's armor will fail the first time it's hit. With 2 tons of poorly padded ammo in the side torso's, well, that's asking for it.
I'm surprised no one has remarked on the fact that the Jav has a pair of fists to rely on.
Paul
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Dec-2003 12:39 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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Go ahead, punch the little pill box. You might make it mad.
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Festina Lente!
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Dec-2003 17:07 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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I'm surprised no one has remarked on the fact that the Jav has a pair of fists to rely on.
Paul
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Yet again...
OK old rules were that fists, and arm actuators, or lack there of did not matter to punches, only missing the ones that you started with.
So a Warhammer with its two PPCs punches just as effectively as a Grasshopper with both fists. Has this changed?
Pin
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"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Dec-2003 18:59 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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On 2003-12-18 17:07, Pinhead wrote:
Yet again...
OK old rules were that fists, and arm actuators, or lack there of did not matter to punches, only missing the ones that you started with.
So a Warhammer with its two PPCs punches just as effectively as a Grasshopper with both fists. Has this changed?
Pin
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A punch with no hand but with a lower arm actuator causes the same amount of damage as a fully actuated arm. However, the punch attempt suffers a +1 penalty to-hit.
A Punch with no actuators (beyond the minimal 2) suffers a +2 to-hit and does half the normal damage.
Paul
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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| Posted: 19-Dec-2003 12:57 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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"Wait for me................ (please?)", comes the plaintive call from the Urbie pilot. Dust is a good color on an Urbanmech, especially during an offensive when the rest disappear over the horizon. 
Maybe it should be reclassified as an infantry assault support platform?
However, the Urbie is the dealer of death and destruction to all light mechs in the city evironment!
I am a fan of pillbox warfare.
[ This Message was edited by: Havoc~Ronin on 2003-12-19 13:18 ]
_________________
"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 09:51 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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A punch with no hand but with a lower arm actuator causes the same amount of damage as a fully actuated arm. However, the punch attempt suffers a +1 penalty to-hit.
A Punch with no actuators (beyond the minimal 2) suffers a +2 to-hit and does half the normal damage.
Paul
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Paul?
Is this stated in the new sourcebook? I haven't bought one in 5 or 6 years so t'is an honest question.
Pin
_________________
"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Arngrim
Clan Ghost Bear
Warrior
Joined: 30-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 7
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| Posted: 01-Jul-2004 15:09 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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I'd go for the Javelin in both environments. Speed kills in the open, and in a city you stay behind a building when you loose initiative and jump in and fire+2punches when you win. Deciding the range is a _huge_ advantage.
With the house models I'd go for the Urbie, since 1 hit woud destroy the Jav's location wherever it hit....
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 08-Jul-2004 19:02 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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On 2003-12-17 11:53, Havoc~Ronin wrote:
Urbies Rule!!!
OK, now that that is out of the system, let's compare. In a city, built up area or even a canyon type terrain, the Urbanmech has an advantage. It was designed specifically for city fighting and with its squat shape, this mech has the ability to take advantage of corners and cover. The Javelin's weaknesses are most vulnerable in this style of fighting. I would hedge my bets on the Urbie winning in confined fighting.
However...... in the open, wooded or hilly areas, the Urbie is severely handicapped by its lack of speed and weapon locations. The Javelin, being more mobile and having better jump jet range will the majority of the engagements. The Urbie might win a few with lucky hits, but it is a walking pillbox and speed is not its forte (sic). It becomes a walking target to be pick at with impunity by the Javelin pilot.
This my humble opinion.
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I could not disagree any more. The Urbie sucks in defending the inside of a city. It has no mobility so it can not follow or fall back, if it losses iniative, forget it. Edge of a city? or rough terrain and some open ground? Great.
Yes the boom stick hurts, but it needs range to really be effective. At range 3, which does more damage? Javlin, 2X4X2= 16pts of course scattered, or urbie 10, maybe 13 if you are really lucky? At elite levels then the Urbie can hit and penetrate many times, but at regular skills, then the Javilin takes it every time.
No the Urbie is a lance or support mech, one on one, blows chunks. This is why so many players hate it, they try and duel with a garrison support mech.
AWAD- Yes I do like the Urbie, but not in this fight
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Jul-2004 06:40 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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Awad, we had him falling into a false sense of security and you screwed it up.... Thanks.... 
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 19:10 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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Quote:
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On 2003-12-22 09:51, Pinhead wrote:
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A punch with no hand but with a lower arm actuator causes the same amount of damage as a fully actuated arm. However, the punch attempt suffers a +1 penalty to-hit.
A Punch with no actuators (beyond the minimal 2) suffers a +2 to-hit and does half the normal damage.
Paul
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Paul?
Is this stated in the new sourcebook? I haven't bought one in 5 or 6 years so t'is an honest question.
Pin
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 19:22 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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On 2004-07-08 19:02, AWAD wrote:
I could not disagree any more. The Urbie sucks in defending the inside of a city. It has no mobility so it can not follow or fall back, if it losses iniative, forget it. Edge of a city? or rough terrain and some open ground? Great.
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I partially agree; Urbies would be far more useful if they were faster, IE, by trading that rediculous heatsink in for some more speed.
*Check* Okay, so you need another half ton for that too.
Anyway, yeah, it's speed is poor, but in my limited urban combat experience, those 2 JJ's do help it keep up. A force larger than a lance often has several non-JJ units in it, severely slowing it down when moving through a city. I've only seen mint Assault Mech players consistently move *through* building when just maneuvering.
Pursueing out in the open is a Bad Idea, but pursuit or redeployment within a city, while not comfortable, isn't impossible neither.
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Yes the boom stick hurts, but it needs range to really be effective. At range 3, which does more damage? Javlin, 2X4X2= 16pts of course scattered, or urbie 10, maybe 13 if you are really lucky? At elite levels then the Urbie can hit and penetrate many times, but at regular skills, then the Javilin takes it every time.
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I disagree. While I concur that at range and definitely when at range and with 2 or higher pilots in both Mechs, the Urby has a severe advantage, I feel that up close the playing field is very level.
Yeah, the Jav has a higher damage potential. But the Urby only needs to connect once with it's 10 damage potential to go internal on any of the Jav's locations. Two of which contain ammo.
Meanwhile, you need to group 5 missiles on most locations to get through the armor. 5 on the RT to get your first crit on that ammo holding torso.
And if we assume a 4 pilot (regular), the Jav will need 7's in most instances up close. 50% of it's fire will miss. So it's going to be a while before it shaves away those 8 points, barring luck. Perhaps when it does, the AC ammo will be gone.
Course, at that point it'd win. No reason why the SL would come in to play in that situation, unless you run out of SRMs and need to kick the urby to death.
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No the Urbie is a lance or support mech, one on one, blows chunks. This is why so many players hate it, they try and duel with a garrison support mech.
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I think people hate it because they try to have it fight Mediums. It's designed to stop Lights.
Paul
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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| Posted: 12-Jul-2004 10:33 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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I see your point, but respectfully disagree. Perhaps it is due to the fact that the 5 games I played using the Urbie results in 3 wins for Urbie, 1 tie and 1 win for the Javelin. Each encounter took place in an urban environment. I maneuvered the Urbie into a cross street (boulevard) position and waited for the Javelin to move in. The problem with he Javelin, although superior in potential damage is that it has to close the range and it does not have to ammo to withstand much return fire. The first game - two shots on Javelin equaled ammo hit and boom. That seemed lucky, so we tried again (my opponent has been playing for years, so there was no lack of experience). The next encounter ended with internal hits on the Javelin (gyro). This time the Urbie was seriously hurting. The third game was basically a tie was we pounded each other senseless. The fourth game was taken by the Javelin as he was able to close in for physical attacks. There was nothing the garbage can could do. The last game end with the Javelin going down again due to it's paper armor.
If used properly and against lights, the Urbie can be quite a threat. Had I faced a Panther, I think I would have been crying over a 0-5 score for the Urbie.
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"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 12-Jul-2004 21:58 Post subject: RE: Jumping on the Mech comparison bandwagon |
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You did play it out, so I will give you Kudos for that. I can see your point. Was you Javelin oppenant patient, I mean just outright annoying patient? I would hold off, hide, jump in, fire, jump out. Of couse the Urbig could put his back to a wall. Then punch it down. If it is a Medium building, jump on top. and shoot down, in the back.
I do agree that it would not be a sweep in mutipile battles, but I think the missle thrower should win 2 out of 3.
AWAD- I just played Horns of the Bull at Orgins, and sat at the edge of the board for 4 turns, then charged in, I can wait
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