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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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 Posted: 05-Sep-2003 07:24 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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He's an Awful Actor. He has inherited Comedic talent. His Mom owns a Comedy Club...
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Bo
ComStar
Private, First Class
Joined: 20-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 39
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2003 12:04 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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First of all, I am going to say Stackpole is my favorite of the BT authors. I have read over 3/4 of all the BT books so I have read near all the authors who have written (reading in chronologic order I am on Threads of Ambition). I have also read Stackpole’s essays.
Ok, Stackpole tends not to be so gray. But his books capture my attention right away. It was several chapters before I felt involved with Thread of Ambition.
Each author has their cast of characters and their chunk of the universe. Ok, Stackpole's chunk may be bigger than others. But I like his cast of characters most. In the books, I get most involved in the political struggles more so then the mech battles.
One could say Stackpole is "All hail Victor Davion". But counter that with Thruston and "All hail Aidan Pryde". The character is dead and they still put him on a pedestal.
Each author has their state in the BT universe. Keith with their GDL. Milan with his Calalleros. Thruston and his Falcons. Coleman with Liao. Then Stackpole with Davion, Steiner, Wolves and Comstar. And then others. I feel each author has made an effort to cast a good light (or in some cases a bad light) on their chuck. And in doing so, mudding the waters in someone else’s chuck.
As far as the essays. Money needs to be a factor when you are trying to make a living writing backs. I love writing software, but I can't support my family doing it for free or waiting for back payments. Let's not forget FASA had financial problems. They are no more. I read an article about TSR after they closed. Similar stories. One main product line but could not develop new interest in the market place.
I have felt that the relationship between FASA/Wizkids/the authors and ROC has not been a very good one. Because of ROC we won't see longer than 300 page novels. Also just the hassle of what Stackpole had to do to avoid his warrior series from being rewritten with the 10th anniversary printing.
I have written too much already so let me conclude. To say Stackpole is black and white and the others are not is unfair. To at least some extent, I think all the authors are black and white. All that changes is what is black and what is white.
I enjoy following Victor, I wonder what Katrina is up to now, and Sun-Tzu I love to hate.
[ This Message was edited by: Bo on 2003-09-05 12:05 ]
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2003 12:19 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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On 2003-09-05 12:04, Bo wrote:
I think all the authors are black and white. All that changes is what is black and what is white.
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The first B-tech book I ever read was Stackpole's Malicious Intent (not the best of his work and the editing sucked) but the way the book portrayed Vlad and Katherine appealed to me, They were we favorite characters until they both were demonized by later authors, though in "Prince of Havoc" Katherine was well on here way to being demonized there were things that the other authors could have done to lessen that. And Victor was never completly the good guy, he made some pretty huge mistakes in his political carrer that can easily be used to make him the bad guy. I havn't read most of the books and what I do know has been collected from Battletech Websites (Patrick's and CBT for the most part) so I may be wrong.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2003 20:37 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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The best thing I can say about Stackpole is that alot of the texture of the old Battletech can be found in his books (and those other authors). The universe they created was vibrant and alive (even though very black and white).
The new battletech books that I have read don't even really pique an interest. They are at best hack fiction, and so far not even very good hack fiction, and they do nothing at all to really paint or draw the reader into the "new" universe.
The biggest thought I had when I finished the newest Btech book was that I missed Stackpole.
Pin
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1918
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2003 20:54 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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On 2003-09-05 20:37, Pinhead wrote:
The biggest thought I had when I finished the newest Btech book was that I missed Stackpole.
Pin
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Considering that Stackpole wrote Ghost War (the first of the MWDA novels), and that next to Ruins of Power (which I haven't been able to get much past page 30 or 50, much less finish), I consider it the worst of the MWDA books...
Ruger
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2003 21:33 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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On 2003-09-04 23:58, Gunslinger Patch wrote:
Heh, I loath and despise Pauly Shore, you couldn't pay me to watch him in a movie. But you'll never see me claim that he isn't an actor or a comedian. Shore has the bank account to prove me wrong.
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I wouldn't claim Pauly Shore is not an actor or a comedian either, but I will claim that he can't act and isn't funny.
Yes, Stackpole is a writer. Nobody is denying that. But he's not very good, at least IMO. He used to be, but his latter stuff just didn't peak my interest and was cheesey.
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As for Stackpole, he already has a "real job" he writes full time. |
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Oops, I guess my bias slipped out a little.
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| He has written more novels than I have lived years, and I make a better paycheck than he does. |
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So? I personally do not see anything great about having written a novel.
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| What he has published should have properly gotten him a six figure income to reflect his efforts. |
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No, he should have got exactly what he did get. There are very few things in this world that are more purely capitalistic then entertainment for profit, the relative merit of which is measured in the money it makes.
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2003 21:40 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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To say Stackpole is black and white and the others are not is unfair. To at least some extent, I think all the authors are black and white. All that changes is what is black and what is white.
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I don't think anyone here has made the claim that other Btech authors are not black and white, its just that Stackpole's writing does have a greater effect upon the universe. Its okay if the Caballero's are always the good guys in their stories because they are just a merc unit (although GDL and the Dragoons were getting out of hand). But when you have House leaders that are so stereotypically good and bad it detracts from the whole universe, IMO.
Plus the other authors never wrote annoying letters to the best of my knowledge.
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Gangrene
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2003 02:02 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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He has written more novels than I have lived years, and I make a better paycheck than he does.
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So? I personally do not see anything great about having written a novel.
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What he has published should have properly gotten him a six figure income to reflect his efforts.
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No, he should have got exactly what he did get. There are very few things in this world that are more purely capitalistic then entertainment for profit, the relative merit of which is measured in the money it makes.
You don't see anything great about writing a novel? Have you ever tried it yourself? I have. I consider getting one onto the shelf, good or bad, a high level of personal achievement.
Writing a novel takes up massive amounts of time that most of us don't have unless we want to live like hermits. It takes a strong self-reliance, self starting. Only you can start the thing, only you can finish it. And if you want to write one in less time than eternity it will become the central facet of your daily life for a year or more.
I have worked on 5 novels so far, 1 sucked and I erased it the hundred pages I had done. Another one I scrapped in the plot phase because I just didn't think I could write about the stuff in it like I knew what I was talking about. The other three are unfinished, 2 Battletech and one fantasy each at least a hundred and fifty pages printed single spaced font size 12 off my printer and one of them closer to 300.
I have no idea when or if I will ever finish them and I've messed with them off an on for more than a decade now. I just can't sit down for an hour a day and make progress, I need all day when I write. And since I need to pay for my house, I don't have all day to write.
Most sci-fi fantasy authors only make 10-15,000 per book. For all their time and effort and sacrifice to get it done, they get paid a few cents per copy sold. And since so many people are too dumb to read, books don't sell nearly as well as DVDs and CDs.
Relative Merit? You know all those blockbuster movies and popular TV shows? Where would they be without screenwriters? The screenwriters get paid peanuts compared to the actors. And lets face it, no matter how popular an actor is, there were several other guys they could have plugged into that role who could have done it just as well. But what about the writer who wrote "I'll be back". How many millions did he get paid? Where is his fortune?
There are very, very few authors, maybe a dozen or so, who can get a million bucks for a fiction novel. Almost all of the rest don't get paid enough for a book a year to be called a lower middle class income. Getting paid 5 cents a book for something the consumer paid what, seven bucks or so for, over 20 bucks for hardcover? Let's not talk about a writer's relative merit. Let's just say that if the universe were just, Stackpole and many another prolific author would be making at least a dollar for every copy sold instead of a lousy 5 cents.
Yes, Stackpole's Btech writing has gone down hack road in recent years. Part of it is due to being forced to write to fit the framework handed to him, part is due to page limits from ROC, and part is due to his having to crank out at least 2 books per year just to feed his family and keep the car running.
The reason the Warrior series and the Return of Kerensky were so much better than his latest stuff is because he didn't just write that, he concieved it. A lot of Btechers forget nowadays that Stackpole was also a major writer if not the main writer of the old 3025 house books and sourcebooks. Which is why I defend him when he says he is battletech. Because more than any other single person, he is battletech. He concieved much if not most of the universe, shaped it, guided it. Without him we would have been playing something else entirely this past 20 years.
And all that work, all that creation, did not merit a decent income?
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2003-09-07 02:07 ]
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2003 12:27 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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I know that Stackpole wrote at least one of the MWDA novels I read but it didn't have the scale or coverage of any of his Classic novels.
Hell, it more resembled a book of high school fiction than a decent fantasy novel.
So when I said I was thinking I missed Stackpole, perhaps I missed his characterization of the universe. That book I read resembled a classic Stackpole book, like a Yugo resembles a stock car.
Pin
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"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2003 13:32 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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You don't see anything great about writing a novel? Have you ever tried it yourself? |
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I used to write short stories and considered being a writer for about a month near the end of high school. Obviously I changed my mind.
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So I guess all the people who are M.D.'s, marine biologists, company executives, professional engineers, chemists, pharmacists, lawyers, professors, programmers, veterinarians, and professional athletes are all a bunch of unambitious slobs who happened to be at the right place at the right time when someone was handing out high paying jobs and research grants? Writers do not have the market cornered when it comes to personal discipline and ambition, and in my opinion most sci-fi authors are probably at the lower end of that scale.
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Most sci-fi fantasy authors only make 10-15,000 per book. For all their time and effort and sacrifice to get it done, they get paid a few cents per copy sold.
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If thats the case I will not disagree that authors are underpaid, or more appropriately that books are overpriced. But this type of relationship is often true in entertainment venues. Most music artists only receive a fraction of the cost of a CD. That distributors take advantage of artists is a different discussion, though.
The value of something made for entertainment is in the eye of the beholder, and on a larger scale can be gauged by how much people are willing to pay for it.
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Yes, Stackpole's Btech writing has gone down hack road in recent years. Part of it is due to being forced to write to fit the framework handed to him, part is due to page limits from ROC, and part is due to his having to crank out at least 2 books per year just to feed his family and keep the car running.
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Framework and page limit are not that big of hinderences when it comes to plot events and character development. Somehow I doubt that FASA dictated to Stackpole that Victor had to be a momma's boy or that everything always worked out in the Dancing Joker's favor. Sorry, but his hand in the overall quality of the novel cannot be denied, and if it is poor it should not be excused.
I never originally got into Battletech because of the writing, but for the game itself. While the House books and novels certainly did add to it, to make the claim that he "is" Battletech is an exaggeration to say the least.
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And all that work, all that creation, did not merit a decent income?
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It merited him the income he received. People only get A's for effort in school. When you get down to it his work does not help fix a wounded animal, stock a grocery store, protect our troops, or write a law. It's entertainment, and people will give it what they think its worth.
Perhaps you disagree with society at large and think that Stackpole's work is better and worth more than professional sports, movies, and the latest pop culture albums. I would agree with you in many cases, but that doesn't change the fact that society in general doesn't. That's the plight of being an artist and entertainer.
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Gangrene
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2003 13:33 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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where did all of the money he should've earned go? The publishers. Ask anyone whos ever published a book and they'll tell you not to bother because your publisher will take 99.99999% of the profit. FASA didn't close it's doors because of finacial difficulties the heads of the company decided that they didn't want to lose their money as the stockmarket declines. You can even see their greed in the "unseens" they had permission to use the images of thoughs Macross designs and could have easily won the court case, but there was no money in that so they didn't bother.
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