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Mordel
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 Posted: 30-Nov-2013 18:50 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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I decided to start a new topic for this to differentiate it from other conversations going on in other topics. Also, what I stated in the other topic is incorrect as I was digging around some more since I posted it. Here it is again, updated accordingly:
OK, so I've thought long and hard about this and looked at a few different programs out there (HMP, SSW, MegaMekLab) to see how they've tried to implement it. Can't say that I love any of them as I can't truly figure out what each is doing. They don't always make a ton of sense because you can choose Era Specific as a rules level, which really isn't a rules level at all, but a way to abide by a given era rules restriction. So, here's what I'm going to implement:
- Just like currently, a designer would select a given Rules Level they want to abide by while building (Introductory, Standard, Advanced, Experimental)
- They will then select which Era they would like to design for. The possible Eras will be: Star League, Succession Wars, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age, Non-Era Specific
- Once an Era is selected they will select an Introduction Year. The years allowed will be noted next to the field as a label and will restrict the selections to only applicable years (e.g., 3050-3061 for Clan Invasion).
What this will allow will be the ability to design based on the availability and rules level at any given time. Using one of the examples in the book, let me provide a scenario by looking at the Bloodhound Active Probe. It was prototyped in 3058 as Experimental equipment. In 3082 it was introduced and became wider in production and became Advanced (see TR:Prototypes page 206). In 3090 it became Standard/Tournament Legal (see TR:3145 page 215). Let's look at how all this is impacted based on my selections (assume Inner Sphere design):- If I select Standard, Clan Invasion, 3052 I will not see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was not yet introduced.
- If I select Standard, Clan Invasion, 3058 I will not see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was introduced but is Experimental.
- If I select Advanced, Dark Age, 3081 I will not see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was introduced and is experimental.
- If I select Advanced, Dark Age, 3089 I will see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was introduced and became advanced in 3082.
I'd like to have some discussion around what Non-Era Specific actually means and allows you to do. But for the time being, what does everyone think of the above thoughts surrounding designs built to conform to rules at a specific point in time?
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2013 20:22 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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Non-Era Specific should cover everything a players wants no matter the time frame or era. In that if someone wants a mech to have the Bloodhound in 3058 then that is what they want and with that selected it should allow it.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2013 21:14 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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I continue to think about this and flip-flop on what I want to do. I've come up with what I believe is a really good option.
There will be no option for Non-Era Specific. Instead there will be a check box which will allow users to make the design era specific (i.e., will abide by the rules level for that specific era/introduction year). If the box is not checked then the rules level last published for the equipment will be used, regardless of the introduction year selected. In all cases, equipment availability will still be honored. Using the Bloodhound AP as my example again:
- If I don't select the era specific box and select 3060 as my introduction year using the Standard rules, the Bloodhound AP will be available as it was prototyped in 3058 (so was available) and became Standard in 3090 (per TR:3145).
- If I select the era specific box and select 3060 as my introduction year using the Standard rules, the Bloodhound AP will not be available as it was prototyped in 3058 (so was available) and only became Standard in 3090 (per TR:3145). Since I'm designing for 3060, it's not available as Standard equipment.
What I do want to do here is include two rules levels for all designs. This will help people who want to use a design based on the latest rules level advancements. But will also allow folks to easily use designs based on the era they were introduced. You'll be able to design either way, but as you design you'll see how your selections impact the rules levels. Another example using my Bloodhound AP. Assume I select Standard and 3060 and do not check era specific. I will see the Bloodhound AP for selection since it is now standard.
When I do this, the Calculated Rules Level will reflect Standard, but the Era Specific Rules Level will reflect Experimental as at the time of introduction the equipment was experimental.
I think it's a great approach (though I'm a bit biased) and should make everyone happy. There can also be a sliding scale when viewing the design where you can select different years and it will let you know what the rules level will be at any given time. And in some cases the design may not be possible given a specific year.
Thoughts on this?
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2013 23:52 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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sounds good boss.
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Jade_Dragon
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| Posted: 04-Dec-2013 03:01 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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Sounds workable, now is it codable?
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Mordel
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| Posted: 04-Dec-2013 07:59 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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| Jade_Dragon wrote: | | Sounds workable, now is it codable? |
Like I always tell folks, everything is doable. I've actually amended my thoughts over on the official BT forums (bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,35353.0.html). Oddly enough, no one has responded to my ramblings. It essentially offers up the 3 different design options I'll be providing:
* Current
* Era Specific
* Year Specific
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skiltao
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2013 14:35 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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| "Current" would be identical to the latest "Era Specific" ratings, correct? What happens if a piece of equipment goes from Tournament to Advanced, or from Advanced to Extinct?
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Mordel
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2013 09:16 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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Current would actually refer to the latest set of published rules. So the "Current Rules Level" for a design can shift from Tournament to Advanced or vice versa. It's kind of a pain really, but I get it. Extinct is an interesting concept. Have we had any of the new equipment since the clan invasion go extinct yet?
My site will actually allow the user to design in any of the ways indicated (rules level by Current, Era or Year). The rules level indicated while viewing will also show all three but allow you to slide the year or era to see how those levels would be impacted.
| skiltao wrote: | | "Current" would be identical to the latest "Era Specific" ratings, correct? What happens if a piece of equipment goes from Tournament to Advanced, or from Advanced to Extinct? |
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skiltao
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2013 17:18 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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Sure, but the "latest set of published rules" also apply to the latest era, right? So if I were using these selectors today, what makes selecting "current" different from selecting "3145 Era?"
I like the idea of a slider that lets you see how the rules level changes. But I'm asking because (forgive an extreme example) what if every item on a 'Mech has an era in which that item is Tournament Legal, but no two items are Tourny Legal in the *same* era? It would be nice to have the option to ignore Era penalties.
I don't think it's a big issue yet, just something to prepare for. The only stuff that I know can think of to have declined in Rules availability are the Wars of Reaving stuff and Land Air 'Mechs.
(Related question: if an item changes its Rule Level in the middle of an Era, and someone selects "by era" instead of "by year", what Rule Level do you give the item?)
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Mordel
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2013 18:13 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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Excellent questions, and I love the discussion! See below...
| skiltao wrote: | | Sure, but the "latest set of published rules" also apply to the latest era, right? So if I were using these selectors today, what makes selecting "current" different from selecting "3145 Era?" |
In your example, designing by "Current" or "Dark Age Era" or even "Introduction Year 3135" would all result in the same thing. It really only makes a difference if a piece of equipment shifted rules level at some stage and you designed for an era before the equipment progressed.
| skiltao wrote: | | I like the idea of a slider that lets you see how the rules level changes. But I'm asking because (forgive an extreme example) what if every item on a 'Mech has an era in which that item is Tournament Legal, but no two items are Tourny Legal in the *same* era? It would be nice to have the option to ignore Era penalties. |
You can't really ignore the rules, per se. If you were looking at rules level for an Era, the rules level of the overall design has to honor the rules level of its equipment. Just like in the old days you couldn't call a design Level 2, yet use Level 3 equipment. In your scenario you have to design for the most restrictive equipment in mind. So if you thought you were designing for Advanced, it's possible a piece of equipment you wanted is classified as Experimental and you couldn't use it.
| skiltao wrote: | | I don't think it's a big issue yet, just something to prepare for. The only stuff that I know can think of to have declined in Rules availability are the Wars of Reaving stuff and Land Air 'Mechs. |
Declining in rules level is OK and can be accounted for. Technically if it disappears completely it's accounted for as well. For example, think of Star League era designs. Those are Inner Sphere designs. If you have a design with double heat sinks, for example, and you move the slider to the year 3000, it's going to say "Not Available" or something as the equipment wasn't available at that time as it had gone extinct.
| skiltao wrote: | | (Related question: if an item changes its Rule Level in the middle of an Era, and someone selects "by era" instead of "by year", what Rule Level do you give the item?) |
This is actually clearly defined in the era level technology advancement tables. If the equipment changes in the middle of an era, it is considered at that changed level for the entire era. So if something changed from Exp to Adv in the middle of an era, it would be considered Adv id designing by Era. It's only if you designed by year would the exact year matter.
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skiltao
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| Posted: 08-Dec-2013 13:48 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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Eras default to the Rules Levels of their final year then, interesting. Okay so, everything else aside, here's a GUI question: if "Current" is identical to two existing selections, is it worth calling it out again on its own? You could just append the word "(current)" to the appropriate era descriptor and have the selector default to that era.
| Mordel wrote: | You can't really ignore the rules, per se. If you were looking at rules level for an Era, the rules level of the overall design has to honor the rules level of its equipment. Just like in the old days you couldn't call a design Level 2, yet use Level 3 equipment. In your scenario you have to design for the most restrictive equipment in mind. So if you thought you were designing for Advanced, it's possible a piece of equipment you wanted is classified as Experimental and you couldn't use it.
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You couldn't mix Tech Bases in the old days either, yet we have Mixed Tech designs. "Rules Level" is supposed to separate gameplay into different tiers of complexity/proficiency/convenience, right? What if an event's organizer does not set a year for their game, and does not care to?
| wrote: | Declining in rules level is OK and can be accounted for. Technically if it disappears completely it's accounted for as well. For example, think of Star League era designs. Those are Inner Sphere designs. If you have a design with double heat sinks, for example, and you move the slider to the year 3000, it's going to say "Not Available" or something as the equipment wasn't available at that time as it had gone extinct.
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Anachronous designs are not unheard of in BattleTech fiction. Suppose that LAM technology goes extinct by year X; some new weapon is introduced in year X+100; and in year X+105 my merc unit finds a "Pwwka LAM" in a bunker and (for good or for ill) installs the new weapon. Is it possible to submit this LAM into your proposed system?
| wrote: | | Excellent questions, and I love the discussion! |
*tips hat* Thank you, enjoying this also.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 08-Dec-2013 17:17 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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| skiltao wrote: | | Eras default to the Rules Levels of their final year then, interesting. Okay so, everything else aside, here's a GUI question: if "Current" is identical to two existing selections, is it worth calling it out again on its own? You could just append the word "(current)" to the appropriate era descriptor and have the selector default to that era. |
Some of the ways I'm implementing features are based solely on my interpretation of the rules and information I've gleaned from some of Herb's posts. I did post essentially this exact thread over on the forums but no one seems to want to get a discussion going. But yes, that is how I believe the rules levels work when we look at specific Eras. Short of looking at specific years, there's no way around it.
As for GUI, in that one example it all three are identical. But I could give you another where they are different. The issue with it is some folks are only going to know the current rules for a given piece of equipment. Specifying it by era and year allows that to be tailored. The thought here is when you design you would start out by saying you want to design a Standard unit in the DA era. You put those in and an intro year, and then you decide what should take precedence as far as determining rules level for equipment. It's entirely up to you. And if you realize it's too restrictive, you can shift the era, year or rules level.
| skiltao wrote: | | You couldn't mix Tech Bases in the old days either, yet we have Mixed Tech designs. "Rules Level" is supposed to separate gameplay into different tiers of complexity/proficiency/convenience, right? What if an event's organizer does not set a year for their game, and does not care to? |
While I don't have mixed tech implemented yet, it does fall into a rules level, which happens to be Standard as of the Dark Age era. But if I designed for the Jihad era, it wouldn't be allowed as Standard. If an organizer doesn't set a year or care, then players should use the "Current" rules levels as that is where the universe currently stands. All this progression of tech is relatively new within the last year. before that it was all static, and I think game masters will need to shift. Most may want to abide by 3067 rules, so GMs can say use Standard units as of the Clan Invasion era.
| skiltao wrote: | | Anachronous designs are not unheard of in BattleTech fiction. Suppose that LAM technology goes extinct by year X; some new weapon is introduced in year X+100; and in year X+105 my merc unit finds a "Pwwka LAM" in a bunker and (for good or for ill) installs the new weapon. Is it possible to submit this LAM into your proposed system? |
This is actually something that even currently my site does not support. But I have thought about it and need to implement a method. My thought is that such units would be considered Unofficial, or some such level. If designing for this then essentially rules level and year restrictions are out the window. So regardless of era and year, you can select any piece of equipment you want.
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skiltao
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| Posted: 09-Dec-2013 01:39 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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I had a longer post, but the window timed out, and I must sleep soon; please forgive my brevity.
I agree with your overall plan (submissions default to "current" era, with players able to change era and year as needed).
| Mordel wrote: | | As for GUI, in that one example it all three are identical. But I could give you another where they are different. |
Can you give one where choosing the latest era is not identical to pressing "current?" I have not looked deeply into how these tech progressions are supposed to go.
| wrote: | | If an organizer doesn't set a year or care, then players should use the "Current" rules levels as that is where the universe currently stands. |
If those players are comfortable with multiple eras, why limit them?
| wrote: | | My thought is that such units would be considered Unofficial, or some such level. If designing for this then essentially rules level and year restrictions are out the window. So regardless of era and year, you can select any piece of equipment you want. |
That would be equivalent to selecting "Experimental Rules Level" and "No Era," correct?
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 09-Dec-2013 03:48 Post subject: Era Specific Design |
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Am I doing something wrong, or CASE II hasn't been implemented yet? I've tried 3145 year with experimental rules on.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 09-Dec-2013 11:24 Post subject: Re: Era Specific Design |
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| skiltao wrote: | | Can you give one where choosing the latest era is not identical to pressing "current?" I have not looked deeply into how these tech progressions are supposed to go. |
Choosing the latest Era or Current will always yield the same results as those are identical. The current rules levels are always driven by the latest era.
| skiltao wrote: | | If those players are comfortable with multiple eras, why limit them? |
Again, purely a GM decision. I'm not limiting anything nor enforcing anything. I'm merely giving you the opportunity to set your game play the way you wish. If GMs don't care, then players can bring whatever 'Mechs they want from whatever Era they want regardless of the rules level.
| skiltao wrote: | | That would be equivalent to selecting "Experimental Rules Level" and "No Era," correct? |
Almost. The big difference is that even with Experimental you usually have to abide by the fact of a given piece of equipment being extinct or not. By setting it to Unofficial, the system will essentially ignore the rules level and allow everything (i.e., Experimental, as you've indicated) and will ignore the Era selected as well as Introduction year for purposes of determining equipment availability.
So, you could actually build that Inner Sphere unit in 3010 that has double heat sinks because you found a lost cache.
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