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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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 Posted: 26-Aug-2013 12:36 Post subject: New tech |
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In updating my unit submission code, I'm realizing there's quite a bit of new technology that is now "standard" for game-play purposes. And to be honest, I'm not sure any of it is really any good. Maybe I'm just set in my old ways.
For example, what's the point of the machine gun arrays? I get that they all hit the same location, but is that really worth 1/2 ton for the array module?
So, maybe I won't use these things, but on the plus side, they should be available for unit submissions within a few days. My site will be current up to the TechManual, at which point it will be time to move onto Tactical Operations for some advanced and experimental equipment, since I'll apparently need those to be able to design some of the more recent TROs.
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Mordel Blacknight - Site Administrator
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2013 14:25 Post subject: New tech |
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I actually quite like arrays. They allow concentrated damage from MGs and they also reduce the amount of dice rolling...
Anyway... huzzah for new tech!
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2013 20:07 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Mordel wrote: | | So, maybe I won't use these things, but on the plus side, they should be available for unit submissions within a few days. My site will be current up to the TechManual, at which point it will be time to move onto Tactical Operations for some advanced and experimental equipment, since I'll apparently need those to be able to design some of the more recent TROs. |
And sorry to complicate your code boss, but you'll need to have a build by era option if your going to have anything that differentiates between standard, advanced and experimental equipment. What is experimental in the 3060 era may be advanced or standard in 3075. They now change this stuff based upon era of play.
See TRO:Prototypes p. 204 for examples.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2013 20:10 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Mordel wrote: | In updating my unit submission code, I'm realizing there's quite a bit of new technology that is now "standard" for game-play purposes. And to be honest, I'm not sure any of it is really any good. Maybe I'm just set in my old ways.
For example, what's the point of the machine gun arrays? I get that they all hit the same location, but is that really worth 1/2 ton for the array module? |
It really depends upon the item and the player.
Ex. Micro Pulse Lasers have been almost universally adopted.
Ex. X-Pulse helps reduce the gap between clan and is.
Ex. Endo-Composite gives IS more build options.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 27-Aug-2013 08:43 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Vagabond wrote: |
And sorry to complicate your code boss, but you'll need to have a build by era option if your going to have anything that differentiates between standard, advanced and experimental equipment. What is experimental in the 3060 era may be advanced or standard in 3075. They now change this stuff based upon era of play.
See TRO:Prototypes p. 204 for examples. |
Somehow I don't think you're sorry at all! 
OK, so I think there may be two things here.
1) There is an 'Era-Specific' rules level. Is this so you can design by selecting an era, and you would be presented with the equipment available in the given era specified? If so, is there any restriction by rules level here?
2) What you said. Which I believe if I pick Standard (as an example), I now also have to look at the era to see which equipment was standard in that given era?
Any chance you could point to two sources which detail these a little better? I know you mentioned TRO: Prototypes, but that just gives the new levels. Was hoping for something that explained it all!
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Vagabond
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 27-Aug-2013 14:45 Post subject: New tech |
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Well, Machine Gun Arrays were fun to implement, NOT!
I took the same tact with them as I did Artemis. So you implement them all separately. For example, you select the Machine Gun Array Module and then select Machine Gun (Array) as many times as you want (up-to 4 per module, of course). You then place the module and the machine guns separately in the distribution slots.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 27-Aug-2013 14:46 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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I already knew about those. Neither of which goes into any detail about era-specific rules? They mention Introductory, Standard, Advanced, etc.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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| Posted: 27-Aug-2013 22:41 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Mordel wrote: |
I already knew about those. Neither of which goes into any detail about era-specific rules? They mention Introductory, Standard, Advanced, etc. |
Era specific rules are usually found in operations or era book, like nukes in the Liberation of Terra book or was it a jihad book. Even then those rules are universal to the other eras; they just first mention them in that book. The ONLY differences that I know of at this time between eras is what technology is what level of play.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2013 07:23 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Vagabond wrote: |
Era specific rules are usually found in operations or era book, like nukes in the Liberation of Terra book or was it a jihad book. Even then those rules are universal to the other eras; they just first mention them in that book. The ONLY differences that I know of at this time between eras is what technology is what level of play. |
OK. Well, I'm going through the books, so when I get to the ones that I need to worry about it, I'll update the code. Can't believe how far behind I am on some of this stuff. I feel like a total newb all over again.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 25-Oct-2013 12:00 Post subject: New tech |
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Just stuck in the Future's Past....
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2013 12:40 Post subject: New tech |
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OK, so I've thought long and hard about this and looked at a few different programs out there (HMP, SSW, MegaMekLab) to see how they've tried to implement it. Can't say that I love any of them as I can't truly figure out what each is doing. They don't always make a ton of sense because you can choose Era Specific as a rules level, which really isn't a rules level at all, but a way to abide by a given era rules restriction. So, here's what I'm going to implement:
- Just like currently, a designer would select a given Rules Level they want to abide by while building (Introductory, Standard, Advanced, Experimental)
- They will then select which Era they would like to design for. The possible Eras will be: Star League, Succession Wars, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age, Non-Era Specific
- Once an Era is selected they will select an Introduction Year. The years allowed will be noted next to the field as a label and will restrict the selections to only applicable years (e.g., 3050-3061 for Clan Invasion).
What this will allow will be the ability to design based on the availability and rules level at any given time. Using one of the examples in the book, let me provide a scenario by looking at the Bloodhound Active Probe. It was introduced in 3058 as an Advanced equipment. In 3082 it became Standard (Tournament Legal). Let's look at how all this is impacted based on my selections (assume Inner Sphere design):- If I select Standard, Clan Invasion, 3052 I will not see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was not yet introduced.
- If I select Standard, Clan Invasion, 3059 I will not see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was introduced but is Advanced.
- If I select Advanced, Clan Invasion, 3058 I will see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was introduced and is advanced.
- If I select Standard, Dark Age, 3091 I will see the Bloodhound AP for selection because it was introduced and became standard in 3082.
I'd like to have some discussion around what Non-Era Specific actually means and allows you to do. But for the time being, what does everyone think of the above thoughts surrounding designs built to conform to rules at a specific point in time?
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Kraken
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2013 15:12 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Mordel wrote: | | For example, what's the point of the machine gun arrays? I get that they all hit the same location, but is that really worth 1/2 ton for the array module? |
The machine gun array is an artifact from Mechwarrior 4 (et al).
In the game, the array consists of a group of machine guns in a cluster and X amount of ammo, all for a mere 2 tons. They can fire constantly and generate no heat, making them shockingly devastating - especially if you have multiples going at once - so long as you still have shots left.
*rant*
IMHO, Mechwarrior 4 is a large part of the reason why so few mechs have hands. There's no in-game mechanics to allow for physical attacks beyond charging enemy mechs and trampling enemy tanks, and so from a design standpoint hands are useless; in fact, Mechwarrior 4: Black Knight redid the Black Knight in order to remove its hands.
Instead, the game chose to focus on a whole slew of machines like the Uziel, Hellspawn, Osiris, and Argus that lack hands even when there's no justification for their doing so. The Atlas, Awesome, Wolfhound, and Uller are IIRC the only mechs in-game that have hands (with the Atlas, Awesome, and Catapult being the only 3025 mechs in either Vengeance or Black Knight).
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2013 18:32 Post subject: Re: New tech |
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| Mordel wrote: | | For example, what's the point of the machine gun arrays? I get that they all hit the same location, but is that really worth 1/2 ton for the array module? |
Well, players could choose to implement a modern version of the weapons mounts developed for and included in XTRO:1945. Under this system, the player chooses a single weapon and multiplies the heat, weight, and critical slots by either x2 (dual), x3 (triple), or x4 (quad). However, the entire weapon system is counted as one weapon system (null to mechs but a bonus to vehicles).
| wrote: | | XTRO:1945-PG.28: These multi-weapon mounts use the same ammo as the single-mounted weapons, but expend ammo at a rate equal to the number of guns in the mount. The weapons placed in each mount may be fired together and resolved using the appropriate Cluster Hits column to determine number of hits, or fired individually. |
The advantage of this system over the MG array is the that it doesn't weight anything or take up more space then normal. The back draw is that it does not do the concentrated damage of the MG array.
No rules are included for this but I would likewise use the MG array's rule of shutting off the mount:
| wrote: | | TW-PG.137: Shutting Off MGAs: Like heat sinks, the MGA can be turned off during the End Phase of a turn. In any subsequent turn, the grouped machine guns can be fired individually. The MGA can then be turned back on during the End Phase of any turn, after which it functions as described above. |
In addition, no rules are included for handing weapon mounts for cluster based weapons as none are included in the XTRO. I would simply say that a mount that includes weapon with cluster capabilities that are firing in cluster mode should roll on the cluster table equal to the mount size (2,3, or 4) times the cluster size of the weapon being fired. Should this number exceed 40 then divide this number in half (round up the first half, and down the second) and roll twice on the cluster table: once for each number. (ex. 43 clusters = 21.5 and 21.5 = 22 and 21.)
Personally, I would have designed the system so that a mount once created could not be turned off. The advantage is a single to-hit roll for no weight/crits with the back draw being the cluster hit table. This preserves the benefits of the MG array doing concentrated damage and being able to disable the cluster effect. You could theorize that the arrays 0.5t and 1c are small servo motors tied to a primitive range finder that constantly adjusts the range at which the guns are zeroed allowing for concentrated hits versus a hard mounted cluster that is bolted together with no way to adjust individual weapons during combat. By disabling the MG array, you return weapon control and adjustment for each weapon back to the main fire control.
I can foresee only one big issue with this proposed system: LRMs on Vehicles. A quad-mounted LRM/5 would have the following stats:
Quad-Mounted LRM/5: 8 heat, 1 dmg/miss @20 clusters, (6)7/14/21, weight 8t, 4 crits, ammo 6 shots per ton.
vs.
LRM/20: 6 heat, 1 dmg/miss @20 clusters, (6)7/14/21, weight 10t, 5 crits, ammo 6 shots per ton.
On a mech, a semi-balancer is that it would produce 8 heat vs the 6 on an LRM/20. However, on a vehicle the Quad-mount has no heat. You save two tons of weight and use the same space.
anyway, my two bits.
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