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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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 Posted: 24-Mar-2006 09:53 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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On 2006-03-24 07:59, Capn_Jack wrote:
I understand about the potential for more crit hits. Here's the thing. I have an Hunchback mod I use all the time. I upped the MP and gave it an UAC20. People hate it because I run around making aimed shots at limbs. 40 points of damage to a leg or to a torso carrying ammo doesn't make people happy. I guess I just like the almost garauntee of dishing out 40 points of damage for 16 heat.
~Capn
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Aimed shots?!?
Shouldn't they be made only against immobile targets (mech shutdown, unconscious pilot)? Unless you equipped your HBK with targeting comp, you shouldn't do that under lvl2 rules.
[ This Message was edited by: Sleeping Dragon on 2006-03-24 09:54 ]
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 12:52 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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I can see how that mech would clean house in an ambush, but does it really cause such problems in normal play?
Even with the best-case scenario, i.e. a stationary 0/0 pilot and a slow walking target, a called shot at point-blank range is going to need a roll of 4-5 to hit even with one shot. That's painful, but not lethal to the average 50 tonner. Say the same pilot runs and the opponent jumps 5 hexes into medium range (pretty easy for most mediums). Now you'd need a 10 to hit, and your chances of hitting with both shots are almost as bad as your chances of jamming. A 2/2 pilot (elite, by my standards) could pretty much forget about called shots at all.
I don't think an IS mech (from it's heat output) could move more than 6/9 with this weapons load and carry more than 10-15 shots (except in Lvl 3). I can't imagine the backup weapons are much to worry about, either. In the right terrain, against the right mechs, and with a good initiative roll this probably does quite well against single opponents. I just can't picture it as a game winner every time; not when your opponents know it's coming. 
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:07 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Are you usning house rules for the aim shots? I always thought that the called second shot still needed to be rolled for location.
And I am really curious to see what you came up with of a HB mod that is so scary. I played a little bit and this was what I got. And truthfuly its not that scary at all.
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Hunchback custom HBK-101D
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Komiyaba Type VIII Endo Steel
Power Plant: 250 Nissan XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Starshield Standard
Armament:
1 Ultra AC/20
1 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Komiyaba/Nissan General Industries
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: Sony MST-15
Targeting & Tracking System: Tacticon Tracer 300
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Hunchback custom HBK-101D
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 83 pts Endo Steel 14 2.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 4 LA, 4 RA, 1 LT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
Engine: 250 XL Fusion 12 6.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt.: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 169 pts Standard 0 11.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 16 24
Center Torso (Rear): 8
L/R Side Torso: 12 18/18
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 6/6
L/R Arm: 8 16/16
L/R Leg: 12 24/24
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Ultra AC/20 RT 8 15 13 18.00
(Ammo Locations: 3 LT)
1 Medium Laser CT 3 1 1.00
1 Targeting Computer LT 4 4.00
CASE Equipment: LT 1 .50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 19 70 49.50
Crits & Tons Left: 8 .50
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 8,492,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,156
Cost per BV: 7,346.02
Weapon Value: 947 / 947 (Ratio = .82 / .82)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 31; MRDmg = 8; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 5, Armor/Structure: 4/2
Damage PB/M/L: 4/3/-, Overheat: 0
Class: MM; Point Value: 12
Its just to darn expensive and to darn fragile with the xl to be much use. I would attack it at range and wait for that left torso to go boom. And if I had a targeting comp then I would either target the rt or lt, rt to destroy either your engine or your ac, or your lt to just outright destroy you. Now if your using lvl 3 rules for it it may be a bit different.
If your using a lvl 3 design that looks soemthing like this, well, sorry but it is munchy as hell and shouldnt be allowed at all.
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Hunchback custom HBK-101D
Tech: Mixed Tech / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Komiyaba Type VIII Endo Steel (IS)
Power Plant: 300 Nissan XL Fusion (IS)
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: 6 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor Type: Starshield Standard
Armament:
2 ER Medium Lasers (C)
1 Ultra AC/20 (C)
Manufacturer: Komiyaba/Nissan General Industries
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: Sony MST-15
Targeting & Tracking System: Tacticon Tracer 300
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Hunchback custom HBK-101D
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 83 pts Endo Steel (IS) 14 2.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 4 LA, 4 RA, 3 LT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Engine: 300 XL Fusion 12 9.50
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 10 Double (IS) [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt.: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 160 (IS) 0 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 16 22
Center Torso (Rear): 7
L/R Side Torso: 12 17/17
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 6/6
L/R Arm: 8 15/15
L/R Leg: 12 23/23
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
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1 ER Medium Laser (C) RA 5 1 1.00
1 ER Medium Laser (C) LA 5 1 1.00
1 Ultra AC/20 (C) RT 7 20 12 16.00
(Ammo Locations: 4 LT)
1 Short-Range Targeting ( 0 .00
CASE II Equipment (IS): 1 1.00
(CASE II Loc: 1 LT)
6 Standard Jump Jets: 6 3.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 1 LT, 1 RT, 2 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 24 72 50.00
Crits & Tons Left: 6 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 10,354,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,799
Cost per BV: 5,755.7
Weapon Value: 1,261 / 1,261 (Ratio = .70 / .70)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 32; MRDmg = 12; LRDmg = 1
BattleForce2: MP: 6J, Armor/Structure: 4/2
Damage PB/M/L: 4/3/-, Overheat: 1
Class: MM; Point Value: 18
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:07 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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What about the Blitzkrieg?
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 15:53 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Well, the Blitzkrieg doesn't have a targeting computer, and there's no way to fit one in without dropping the armor to Hussar-like waxed paper coverage.
In level 3 you could throw in an XXL, supercharger, and MASC- maybe even use a clan cannon and computer- if you don't mind having an extremely specialized, fragile mech that costs more than some regiments.
Of course, for the same price you could get a lance of Saracens and a couple of Mechbuster fighters. Or you could just buy a warship and nuke the area from orbit . . . 
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 16:04 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Yes, but as Stinger said in his post with mechs - not so scaring. I would call it Regulator food 
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 22:28 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Ok here is the Munchmaster deluxe a IS hbk with clan gear and a XXL, so for 40 million + you can have this or around 10 to 12 of mixed units.
And even then its just not that scary. Your odd of hitting are ok but not great. and your chances of getting hit and smoked with a munchy Pulse targeting comp combo is still great.
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Hunchback custom HBK-101Munch MKII
Tech: Mixed Tech / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Komiyaba Type VIII Composite (IS)
Power Plant: 300 Nissan XXL Fusion (IS) with Supercharger
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 [162.0] km/h
Jump Jets: 6 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor Type: Starshield Light Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 ER Medium Lasers (C)
1 Ultra AC/20 (C)
Manufacturer: Komiyaba/Nissan General Industries
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: Sony MST-15
Targeting & Tracking System: Tacticon Tracer 300
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Hunchback custom HBK-101Munch MKII
Mass: 50 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 83 pts Composite (IS) 0 2.50
Engine: 300 XXL Fusion 18 6.34
Engine Supercharger: (LT) 1 .64
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9 [12-15]
Jumping MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 10 Double (IS) [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt.: 5 3.00
MASC (IS): 3 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 161 (IS) 7 9.49
(Armor Crit Loc: 1 HD, 3 LA, 3 RA)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 16 22
Center Torso (Rear): 8
L/R Side Torso: 12 17/17
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 6/6
L/R Arm: 8 15/15
L/R Leg: 12 23/23
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 ER Medium Laser (C) RA 5 1 1.00
1 ER Medium Laser (C) LA 5 1 1.00
1 Ultra AC/20 (C) RT 7 20 12 16.00
(Ammo Locations: 4 LT)
1 Short-Range Targeting ( 0 .00
CASE II Equipment (IS): 1 1.00
(CASE II Loc: 1 LT)
6 Standard Jump Jets: 6 3.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 24 75 49.97
Crits & Tons Left: 3 .03
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 40,268,025 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,800
Cost per BV: 22,371.13
Weapon Value: 1,040 / 1,040 (Ratio = .58 / .58)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 32; MRDmg = 12; LRDmg = 1
BattleForce2: MP: 6J, Armor/Structure: 4/2
Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/-, Overheat: 2
Class: MM; Point Value: 18
And here is what I would counter it with. What a boring fight.
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Ultra munch custom
Tech: Clan / 3050
Config: Biped OmniMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 300 XL Fusion with Supercharger
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 [162.0] km/h
Jump Jets: 6 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
6 Medium Pulse Lasers
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Ultra munch custom
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 83 pts Endo Steel 7 2.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Engine: 300 XL Fusion 10 9.50
Engine Supercharger: (LT) 1 1.00
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9 [12-15]
Jumping MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 13 Double [26] 6 3.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 LT, 1 RT)
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt.: 5 3.00
MASC: 2 2.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 154 pts Ferro-Fibrous 7 8.00
(Armor Crit Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 16 20
Center Torso (Rear): 7
L/R Side Torso: 12 16/16
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 6/6
L/R Arm: 8 15/15
L/R Leg: 12 22/22
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
3 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 12 3 6.00
3 Medium Pulse Lasers LA 12 3 6.00
1 Targeting Computer RT 3 3.00
6 Standard Jump Jets: 6 3.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 3 LT, 3 RT)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 24 73 50.00
Crits & Tons Left: 5 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 18,892,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,528
Cost per BV: 7,473.3
Weapon Value: 2,941 / 2,941 (Ratio = 1.16 / 1.16)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 42; MRDmg = 26; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 6J, Armor/Structure: 4/3
Damage PB/M/L: 6/5/-, Overheat: 0
Class: MM; Point Value: 25
Specials: omni
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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bladewind
Free Rasalhague Republic
Major General
Joined: 02-Oct-2004 00:00
Posts: 1054
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 23:21 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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As the others have said, the Lb- cannons are much more versatile than Ultras. That is why I like em. 
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Mar-2006 23:44 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Now dont get me wrong I like both. (and actually prefer Ultras to the Lb. But I am just trying to figure out how his Hbk mod is so scary.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2006 04:23 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-03-24 15:53, Knightrunner wrote:
Well, the Blitzkrieg doesn't have a targeting computer, and there's no way to fit one in without dropping the armor to Hussar-like waxed paper coverage.
...
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Actually you forgot about magic IIC formula
Clan UAC weighs only 12 tons so you can use remaining 3 for TC and still get bonus armor thanks to clan FF.
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Capn_Jack
Clan Ghost Bear
Warrior
Joined: 21-Mar-2006 00:00
Posts: 6
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2006 08:54 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-03-24 07:59, Capn_Jack wrote:
I understand about the potential for more crit hits. Here's the thing. I have an Hunchback mod I use all the time. I upped the MP and gave it an UAC20. People hate it because I run around making aimed shots at limbs. 40 points of damage to a leg or to a torso carrying ammo doesn't make people happy. I guess I just like the almost garauntee of dishing out 40 points of damage for 16 heat.
~Capn
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UGH....Here's some errata that I thought you would get since you play all the time.
1. I make aimed shots when I can.
2. I know the chance of a frozen weapon but 3% is a small chance.
3. I don't ALWAYS run.
4. I know I have to roll an 8 to get both shots to hit.
Not to be a bugger but this post is about how useful LB-X's are. My point was I have a medium mech that can close quickly and has the potential of doing at least 40 points of damage. I didn't tell you the situations I use it in or the way I use it because this isn't about how I play. It's about how if my 'mech was toting an LB-20X and I rolled a 2 on the missle hits table I think (off the top of my head, I don't have the table memorized) that only 6 or so munitions hit. Whereas using my UAC20 I can do at least 20 with a chance of doing 40. Yes there's a slim chance of it jamming. I've played about 10 campaigns with this 'mech in use and the UAC has jammed but it hasn't happened enough for me to think that it is toally unreliable. Please reply to this post for what it is. This is not a post about rules and errata and scoping how I play.
~Capn
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2006 09:34 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Okay, I'm not trying to say that UACs aren't useful, or if they are more useful than the LB-X guns. The reasons to like LB gun were already mentioned, but few people (including me) are curious and want to know why is UAC/20 HBK with upped engine so scaring. would you post some stats?
To your point. No one denies that you can do 40 damage with your UAC, it's very dangerous weapons that can quickly chop lighter mechs to pieces and threaten even heavies and assaults, but it also has it's drawbacks - ammo consumption, size, jamming, heat production and a little than 50% chance to hit with both shots.
LB's ammo lasts longer, it has better range and while doing less damage it's a little more accurate and the damage is spread around the target - rolling 2 means full SRM 6 hit. It doesn't do as much damage as the SRMs, but the main point is the fact that you hit, not how much damage it deals. LB-X is just like having AC and SRM in one gun, you cannot fire both at once with LB gun, but you can easily hit the hole created by AC shell again once you hit some sensitive location.
Both weapons have strong and weak points and are equally useful in general. I think that performance differences depend on situation.
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Capn_Jack
Clan Ghost Bear
Warrior
Joined: 21-Mar-2006 00:00
Posts: 6
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2006 10:27 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Just because people hate it doesn't make it scarry. I hate mosquitos but I'm not afraid of them. When I think I can be successful I will attempt aimed shots for legs and arms, respectively. To quote Karate Kid Part 3 "If an enemy cannot stand he cannot fight." I don't constantly make aimed shots and I'm not constantly successful. I do however have a tendency to roll leg hits. Maybe it's how I roll the dice I don't know. The whole reason for this post was for people to give the upside about LB-X's. I know the downsides and I'd trade those for the downsides of an UAC. I don't dispute the usefulness of the smaller LB-X's (2'S and 5's) because a double-shot from either of those really isn't worth it. I guess I'm just biased against the LB-20X's and the LB-10X's because the damage potential really isn't there. Maybe I just have to use them more. I've been using UAC for so long that I can't break away from the damage factor of them. It makes me grin with an evil glint in my eye when I rip through someone's 'mech with 40 points of damage. As I said in the original topic: I get the -1 modifier. I can also see the potential for more crit hits. I guess I'm having a hard time giving up the double damage. I almost feel like we're trying to compare apples and oranges. Two different pieces of equipment for two different purposes. Maybe I just have to use them more and it'll change my mind, who knows. Thanks to everyone for posting. If you think of some devestating possibility that we've overlooked thus far, by all means let us know.
~Capn
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2006 10:43 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Actually one of the most evil ways to use them is to use them together
Heavier UACs are most useful when you stand against tough target, they excel at getting through armor quickly, but LB guns can do their work against armor and disable even the toughest tanks without having to chew through all the armor (thanks to the vee hit location tables) they are better at hitting elusive target and can nicely support UACs.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1470
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 25-Mar-2006 12:01 Post subject: RE: LB-X's how useful are they really? |
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Just think of the Demolisher II!
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