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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
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 Posted: 29-Oct-2004 21:40 Post subject: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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I was reading the ECCM rules over, and struck by a couple of things.
1) C3 units should carry ECM suites if you plan on using this rule, in order to counter attempts to break up the network.
2) Angel ECM systems have the following effect on Streak SRMs:
"Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by ECM, but they function as standard launchers." Max Tech pp. 84
Does this mean that the effective range of Clan Streaks is reduced to 3-6-9 when fired into an Angel ECM bubble? I would think so, given that the rule states that they act as "standard launchers." There's no caveat excepting range.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Oct-2004 22:01 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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I don't think so. The range is inherent in the weapon; if you remove the Streak's Streakness, I'd say that it still retains its range. Mind that that's a gut call, without consulting a book, since I don't have Max Tech.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 29-Oct-2004 23:02 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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The range would remain the same. What is effected is its ability to lock on to a Mech. meaning you roll to hit, if you don't hit, it still fires. Essentially negating the coolness of it being a streak. Likewise, a Streak 6 would still need to roll on the 6 chart, if it did hit, to see how many missiles. Angel ECM is very effective and well worth the cost and tonnage if you've got the room.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 01:35 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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What the rules say is that Streaks function the same as standard launchers. There is no reason to exempt range. Streaks probably derive that additional range from electronic guidance in any case.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 01:56 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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I'd be tempted to leave the range as it is, just to avoid having to think about it. Depending on the size of the game, of course.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
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Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 11:48 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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It says that they function as standard launchers. The ECM scrambles their electronics, so that they hit with the same accuracy as standard SRMs. But the range is not related to electronics, and so doesn't change. Range is related to propulsion - in the case of a missile, a rocket motor. I never understood why Clan Streak SRMs had a longer range, but that range would not be affected by electronics.
[ This Message was edited by: StarRaven on 2004-10-31 11:48 ]
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 15:36 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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On 2004-10-31 11:48, StarRaven wrote:
It says that they function as standard launchers. |
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Precisely. Range is one of the functions of the weapon. Thus, the range would be the same as standard SRMs.
Effective range could very well be a function of the electronics. Weapons have further absolute ranges than their effective range; i.e., the max range you can actually get the weapon on target at.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 16:34 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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Well if that's how you see it, all right. But I don't see range as being affected by ECM. You can't change a weapon's absolute range. ECM can make it less accurate over that range, but can't reduce it. It just won't hit anything at the end of that range. Which is exactly what it means to go from being Streak to being standard - a drop in accuracy. It can still reach to range 12, and has some chance of hitting. It's just less chance. ECM cannot change the physical reality of a weapon - in this case the rocket motor.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 17:22 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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Electronic guidance has a lot to do with the range of the weapon as well though. Blocking the electronic guidance, thus reducing the accuracy of the weapon, reduces the effective range.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 20:14 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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That's what I just said. By scrambling its electronics, you reduce its accuracy over its range. So it's now a standard SRM. But since you haven't changed the motor, you haven't changed the distance it's capable of traveling after launch. You've only changed the odds of it hitting something before the motor burns out. So it maintains its range, but hits like a standard SRM. The ECM reduces its effective range, but cannot change its maximum range.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 20:58 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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Well, the rule is written as it is, so I think that's been settled; clearly, according to the rules, Angel ECMs make Streaks function as normal launchers; thus, they have only a 3/6/9 range, as a result of that functioning.
Now, turning to the question of "does this make sense" which we are debating, I think it might. The range given for a weapon is it's effective range. The maximum range is further, but is beyond the effective range, the range at which you can accurately direct the weapon onto a target.
Now advanced targeting and tracking systems can increase the effective range, bringing it further out to the maximum range. If those electronics were disrupted, the missile would still fly out to it's maximum range, but it would fly erratically, with an essentially zero chance of hitting the target. Thus the range in game stats would drop.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 22:23 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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Clearly? If the rule is clear, why did you bring it to us to discuss?
Again, I don't have Max Tech. But according to the rule you've posted, it's perfectly clear that a Streak SRM affected by Angel ECM functions just like a normal SRM, in that it loses its ability to lock and hit with every missile; it still fires if it fails to hit, and must roll to see how many missiles hit. But it retains its longer range, because range is a part of the weapon, seperate from the way it works. Range is not a part of the way the weapon functions, and so cannot be changed by a change in the way the weapon functions.
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On 2004-10-31 20:58, mud wrote:
The range given for a weapon is it's effective range.
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I think you've found our problem. We seem to have different definitions of maximum and effective range in terms of game stats. The game range given for a weapon (12) is its maximum range. The chances of hitting at this range are slim, but still existant. As long as the missile can physically reach this distance, there is still some chance that it will hit. Past 12, the rocket motor burns out, and so the missile can't hit anything.
Now, let's go to something else questionable about this rule, which I just noticed.
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"Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by ECM, but they function as standard launchers."
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Fired at units affected by ECM? Why does it matter that the unit you're firing at is affected by ECM? It would make perfect sense if the word was "by". Streaks can be fired by units affected by ECM, but function as standards. But why would your target's ECM status affect how your missiles work?
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 04:06 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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I'm afraid I must agree with mud here. 
Even with pistols and rifles of today's age, the ranges given are the effective ranges, not the maximum ranges. Even with missle weapons of today's age, ranges are given in effective ranges. Missles in general have a rather variable maximum range. It all depends onfuel, speed when fired, speed when fuel expires, any manuevering done by said missle, angle of firing, any changes in altitude missle goes through during flight, wind speed and direction, etc, etc,.....There can be a few mioles difference in the maximum range. HOWEVER, thise missles have pretty much the same effective range. And that range is the distance that the electronic guidance of the missle can keep a target. When the guidance can no longer hold it's target, the missle has pretty much reached it's effective range. It is no longer an effective weapon. As stated, the effective range is the maximum range in which the weapon can be effectively guided to a target. If a weapon hass a chancee to randomly hit a target beyond that it is uncontrrolled and is deemed a miracle that you hit something. Some missles will disable the warhead when the missle goes beyond the range of it's guidance system. In the difference in SRM's and SSRM's the SRM missles actually have greater maximum range but a shorrter effective range. While the opposite is true for SSRM's. Easy to tell, With a SRM 6 you get 15 shots per ton. With a SSRM 6 you get 15 shots per ton. They both do 2 damage per missle, So if the size of the missle is the same and the warhead size is the same then the fuel size would have to suffer to accomidate the larger guidance system.
BTech physics, ain't it great. 
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Boneshaman
Draconis Combine
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Joined: 13-Aug-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 11:19 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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| i don't think ecm as any affect on fuel supply on a missile. the amount fuel it has gives the missile its range
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 13:34 Post subject: RE: Level Three ECM/ECCM |
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I'm actually a good deal more excited over the possiblity of using ECCM in conjunction with C3, in order to counter enemy attempts to break up the network. The thing is, very few or none of the C3 or C3i designs carry ECM suites; they should be standard issue.
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