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mechlord
Clan Steel Viper
Warrior
Joined: 17-Jun-2004 00:00
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 Posted: 01-Jul-2004 20:50 Post subject: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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I have never player BT with VTOLs, but I have been planning on it since I started "converting" my MWDA minis for CBT play.
Ok, with that said, I have been reading the rules, and quite frankly I'm a little confused. Everything looks very cool in that the VTOL has speed which should make it relatively hard to hit, but elevation seems to be overlooked in several respects... Like:
1) What is the elevation "limit" with respect to the scenario. I mean what's to keep the VTOL from going to elevation 20?
2) If the VTOL is at elevation level 20, and it is four inches away from a mech, is the range still four inches. What if its at elevation level 30, etc?
3) has anyone ever done a "true range" table for BT? I mean, I guess I could apply the Pythagorean Theorem (C squared= A squared + B squared with C squared being the hypotenuse... or the "true range" in this case) to a variety of ranges to create my own, but it would be nice if someone has already done it.
Anywho... any help or suggestions on how this is being played would be helpful..
Thanks,
-Mechlord
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Feral
ComStar
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Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 02-Jul-2004 00:25 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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Well I would say avoid the trig and just count every 5 levels as an additional range category. I believe each level is 6 meters and since a hex is 30 ... every 5 levels of height difference can add 1 to the range. This avoids the trig and still gives a fair amount of realism to it. If you want to be a little closer to the trig say every 6 levels adds one (the hypotenuse is shorter).
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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| Posted: 02-Jul-2004 11:41 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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I believe that if you are 4 hexes away and 20 hexes up, its still only counted as 4 hexes. I always thought that height should be taken into account.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 02-Jul-2004 13:17 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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I think for simplicity reasons (and the fact that this game was designed to be about battleMechs, not vehicles), they kept it simple.
Now, using the pythagorean theorum is a good idea if you figured everything out from 1 hex to 30 or so away, and equal elevation to 30 elevation level difference. You'd have to make a chart and keep it with you whenever you play.
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mechlord
Clan Steel Viper
Warrior
Joined: 17-Jun-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 03-Jul-2004 21:38 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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Well, I have started the thing, with an elevation limit of 20, and 30 hex range. As is there are 600 entries, and while a lot I can do in my head, the first 200 took me an hour and a half!
Will post when complete so others can use!
-Mechlord
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
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Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 05-Jul-2004 01:39 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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Maybe someone can convince the lads and lasses at MegaMek to add this in as well.. when the clear their existing back log..
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Jul-2004 06:07 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-05 01:39, Erenon wrote:
Maybe someone can convince the lads and lasses at MegaMek to add this in as well.. when the clear their existing back log..
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As this is a house rule I'm not sure they'd be interested...
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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 12:06 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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I use the Hypotenuse Rule (as a house rule, of course) -but generally I ignore it unless the altitude difference is big (15 levels or more, since 15 levels equals roughly 3 hexes, and a 1 or 2 hex "vertical range" doesn't create a hypotenuse that is all that different from the horizontal range).
To answer your other question, no, I do not believe that there IS an "altitude limit". In fact, the whole reason that I started using the hypotenuse rule is a former player who forced the issue by trying to talk me into a totally munchy tactic:
he claimed that he could fly a VTOL to within one hex of an enemy mech, and climb to an altitude of like 200 levels where, according the player, he was invulnerable to enemy fire (since 200 levels HAS to be beyond the range of most weapons), but at a "map range" of one hex, he could spot for indirect fire with no negative modifiers...
...this logic is totally full of holes, but it forced me to consider the whole "true range" issue.
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Ronin
ComStar
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 12:20 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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| That's what the aerospace (or conventional) fighters are for. Anyone that wants to park their helo that high to spot for artillery had better watch their six.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 12:20 Post subject: RE: VTOLs and "True Range"? |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-06 12:06, Col. Dwight Chandra wrote:
...this logic is totally full of holes, but it forced me to consider the whole "true range" issue.
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Logic has little to do with the rules.
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Storm
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 15:54 Post subject: "True Range"?: KISS Formula |
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Lancer and I use VTOLs extensively, and we developed a simple formula (because I suck at math):
Measure the direct distance from the VTOL. If it's 20 levels up, raise it 20 levels straight up, then with a ruler, measure the distance to the center of the targeted mini. Use that to determine your range.
Now if you want realism, take into acount that bullets fly different when fired up or down hill . . . .
Storm
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Storm
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 15:58 Post subject: The air up there . . . |
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Err, wouldn't the air be a little thin for a helo to fly that high? 200 x 30 meters=6,000 feet.
Personally, I'd have waited til the little turd ran ouf of fuel, claiming that running his engine to stay so high would make it lose fuel faster, then when he landed, tap danced on it.
If helos could fly that high, why do we have jet liners?
Storm
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Ronin
ComStar
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Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 17:52 Post subject: RE: The air up there . . . |
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6000 feet isn't all that high. Unless you smoke, you don't even have to worry about the effects of hypoxia until about 8000 to 12000 feet (the altitudes when the FAA suggests and requires oxygen systems in non-pressurized aircraft).
Most helos can handle 6000 feet well enough, and can make it up to about 10,000 or more if done properly.
Note that as the altitude increases, the air thins, lift decreases, and normally aspirated (as opposed to turbine) engines decrease in efficiency. What this means is that the higher you go, the slower you climb. This is for all aircraft, fixed or rotary wing, or otherwise.
Jet liners usually cruise at about 30,000 or so at least, unless they are doing a short hop.
For added realism, I wouldn't allow helos to climb at a rate more than 3000 feet per minute (you do the math), and that's with powerful engines. Trying to climb while hovering is a lot slower, so climbing in the same hex should be less (maybe 1/2 to 1/4 of the previous rate?).
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 06-Jul-2004 20:17 Post subject: RE: The air up there . . . |
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Actually each level is only 6 meters. So 200 levels is 1,200 meters.
-edit- math error.
[ This Message was edited by: Seraph on 2004-07-06 20:18 ]
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 14-Jul-2004 12:13 Post subject: RE: "True Range"?: KISS Formula |
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I don't have the book on hand, but I do remember that VTOLs cannot climb into the Lower Atmosphere map, so wherever that starts is your max altitude.
As a practical matter, I figure that a helicopter can't see well enough to hit a target (much less spot artillery) from more than 500 feet up (about 30 elevations).
However, to keep my life simple, I add a range increment every 10 elevations. So from high altitude (where they would have to be moving fast and trying to spot a really small target) the shot is harder, and can only be made from closer to the target.
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