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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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 Posted: 29-Jan-2004 15:07 Post subject: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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The armless configuration (page 69, Max Tech) is an interesting structural option when you need to save as much weight as you can in lower tonnage designs. Besides the weight savings, having less locations to cover means you can achieve more protection with less armor weight.
Looks like a good trade off and a sound rule it isn't?
Well, it doesn't. If you follow Max Tech rules, "A hit location roll that indicates an arm hit does not damage to the armless 'Mech, the damage does not transfer to the side torso, as it would with a hit against a destroyed arm"
Well, we played this rule and found it sucked. It's just another good idea but a half assed implementation. After going all the trouble to hit a 'Mech, if you hit, the shot must have hit something.
So we simply decided to aplly the standard damage transfer. Any arm hit rolled is transferred to the side torso.
Problem is that this mean the side torsos receive a disproportionate number of hits that the increased armor from weight savings and armor redistribution does little to stop. It's the vehicle armor paradox.
Since the armless configuration is used in lower tonnage machines that squeeze every ounce of performance from a small chassis (you aren't going to convince me a Rifleman is armless with those gun pods, or even worse, a Stalker, those huge missile racks count as arms for hit location purposes) I feel that it's needed a balancing solution. Adding a +1 to hit penalty to shots against these 'Mechs would be too much, though certainly their small profile would be advantageous in some circumstances like when taking partial cover, but that's another question.
So I think the best solution is the following:
A hit location roll in an arm is still a hit, and it gets transferred to the appropiate torso, but since it wasn't a shot that was square on the center of mass of the target, all such rolls are considered Glancing Blows as per the Maximum Tech rules, page 20. It does half the damage rounded down.
So what do you think? I think it's the most fair and accurate representation of what happens.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 15:13 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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That sounds more logical than the original rule decsions. Especially for the 20-30 ton lights. Some of them are pretty tiny.
Speaking of tiny mechs: if a standard mech is about 2 levels tall, doesn't it stand to reason that a 100 ton mech would be much taller and wider than a 20 ton mech? I can see an Atlas being 2 levels tall, but a locust? The way I see it, a locust would come up to the belly button on an Atlas and therefore the partial coverage rules would be different. So when you take the arms off, you have a mech the size of a full size suburban tipped up on its back bumper.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 15:26 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Well, there is mention that some 'Mechs have a low profile, like the Urban'Mech and the Dragon, so they get an additional +1 bonus when they are under partial cover.
I would make this into a "Low/small profile" generic rule and apply it to some choice designs. For example, I figure out that a Locust could crouch down and hide behind a level 1 cover (6 meters)
Oh, and there's the Vulcan, that gets a +1 To Hit modifier for shots fired at long range against it, but that's an unique case.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 17:20 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Why not just re-roll the location? Either keep rolling until you hit a valid location, or if the second roll hits an arm, then you actually miss. If you're gonna hit, and the arm isn't there but you're still considering it a hit. I think the better way is to re-roll, personally.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 17:43 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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| I think this is why I stayed away from armless 'mechs in the first place. Another problem with armless 'mechs; if they fall down there is no way they are getting back up.
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 18:08 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Nah, Armless mechs can get up. The chicken-legged style have *no* problem, but even a humanoid one can without too much work. What, you've never been in a straight jacket and on the floor? Same thing. 
Teh new 'Count armhits as misses' thing is weird, but it works. CLUNKY, but it works. Sadly, we found that the "Efficient Goobers" jumped all over this. "Wait. I get to be lighter *and* there's a chance to dodge bullets? Dude!"
I need to sit down sometime and swim around in Battletech for a month or so again, and get all the little rules things figured out and processed.
-- Old Dog, gotta do the re-writes.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 18:16 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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| a person could do it, but a 'mech might have a harder time of it...it would be rough on the paint job in any case
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 18:22 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Just remember, there's no rules stating getting up with no arms is any more difficult than if you had them both. Now, you and I know it's more difficult, but as far as the game mechanics and rules go, there's no difference.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 19:41 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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I bet thats because they were thinking you'd be firing weapons as you were standing, and it would suck if you couldn't stand while firing, most people would get stuck in the mud.
Raven, his personal two cbills!
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2004 23:56 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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On 2004-01-29 18:22, Mordel wrote:
Just remember, there's no rules stating getting up with no arms is any more difficult than if you had them both. |
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But on the other hand (heh), there ARE rules about firing when you're down. You need at least one operational arm in order to prop your mech up for shootin torso weapons and the other arm, if present. So the armless one is out if he can't stand up.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 30-Jan-2004 05:03 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Quote:
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On 2004-01-29 17:20, Mordel wrote:
Why not just re-roll the location? Either keep rolling until you hit a valid location, or if the second roll hits an arm, then you actually miss
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It's the same problem as the original rule, if you took your chances with a hit, and after rerolling you hit the arm again, then you have been cheated of your shot. Plus rolling again is a drag, and it spoils the mood.
Your solution cuts in half the misses and distorts probabilities, increasing chances of a hit somewhere else
"oh I missed the arm, well I get a reroll and I might hit the head or center torso instead"
I like the armless configuration, but I'm not in favour of giving them a chance to "dodge bullets" as Old Dawg says, even without arms a 'Mech frontal area is still big enough to not it make a harder target.
Arms as they partially obscure the body act as a buffer against shots, on the other hand, they tend to catch shots that otherwise would be near misses.
So my solution reflects that 'Mechwarriors that fire at an armless 'Mech compensate for the marginally smaller target, and the shots that normally would be a solid hit against an arm that gets in the way, will just glance off the body.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Jan-2004 05:11 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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No, you need both arms tp prop and fire...
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On 2004-01-29 23:56, Nightmare wrote:
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On 2004-01-29 18:22, Mordel wrote:
Just remember, there's no rules stating getting up with no arms is any more difficult than if you had them both. |
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But on the other hand (heh), there ARE rules about firing when you're down. You need at least one operational arm in order to prop your mech up for shootin torso weapons and the other arm, if present. So the armless one is out if he can't stand up.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 30-Jan-2004 06:15 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Teh new 'Count armhits as misses' thing is weird, but it works. CLUNKY, but it works.
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It's clunky and doesn't work, have played it extensively and we don't like it, gives too much advantage to armless 'Mechs.,
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Sadly, we found that the "Efficient Goobers" jumped all over this. "Wait. I get to be lighter *and* there's a chance to dodge bullets? Dude!"
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You are proving me right and proving you wrong. Armless configuration is literally cutting corners in 'Mech design. It actually has more drawbacks than benefits, the tradeoff is only interesting if you are cheap, or in a lower tonnage 'Mech where every bit of saved weight counts. And I would put a strict limit on this, a Catapult cannot get the advantage of armless because the missile box are as big as a proper arm. Same goes for the
Jager'Mech Rifleman and
Blackjack and similar.
I'd put the limit of tonnage allowed in Shoulder Turrets for armless 'Mechs at 2 tons. That means, anything bigger than the weapons pod in a Cicada and you have to mount it in an arm instead.
That would dissuade any attempt at making an armless heavy or assault 'Mech. It's just not worth it.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Jan-2004 06:19 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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If you bypass the arms altogether and hit the head, this point is moot....
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 30-Jan-2004 06:27 Post subject: RE: Armless 'Mechs and hit location |
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Quote:
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On 2004-01-29 18:22, Mordel wrote:
Just remember, there's no rules stating getting up with no arms is any more difficult than if you had them both. Now, you and I know it's more difficult, but as far as the game mechanics and rules go, there's no difference.
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Well, I think it's obvious that the modifiers for damaged or missing actuators in the basic rules also apply to standing up attempts, after all, the damaged leg actuator modifies applies to *all* the Piloting Checks, and standing up recquires a *Piloting Check*
For people that need to be told everything or haven't paid attention  there are *indeed* rules.
Maximum Tech page 16
Attempting to Stand
When a Battlemech attempts to stand , it uses its arms and legs to lift itself up. Therefore , missing or damaged actuators make standing up more difficult...
(if you want to read the rules, go pick the book or buy it )
I am sure this text was incorporated into Battletech Mster Rules.
Maximum Tech page 16
Armless 'Mechs
(last line)
...Any attempt to stand imposes a +4 modifier to the Piloting Skill Roll; see Attempting to Stand, p 16...
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