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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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 Posted: 06-Dec-2003 12:02 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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On 2003-12-06 11:42, -Mud wrote:
Once he had you on your back, why didn't the T-bolt simply move back to ten hexes and snipe with the Large Laser until he finally totally disabled the Catapult. It's not like the 'pult could have done anything about it?
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Because he was so frustrated that I had killed 2 of his 3 remaining 'Mechs that he didn't. He charged in and with for the kill. Sometimes being methodical and calculating can have even more of an affect on one's opponent!
_________________
As always, enjoy!
Warner Doles
"Who am I? I am the right hand of fiat, tormentor of souls, death incarnate, and the last living writer you will ever see. Randall sent me."
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2003 12:20 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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| Yeah, sounds like you already had him frustrated enough once he sent that Vindicator after you...sure, you could snipe at him, but once you ran out of LRMS and had to rely on the Mediums, they would have gotten a disabling hit eventually. Discipline and patience can be very important. Of course, the funny thing is that he didn't learn the first time, and rushed in with the T-bolt once you were down.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2003 14:28 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Ok i've run this battle four times using MegaMek agianst a bot. Two standard BattleTech maps. Here are the results:
Game 1: I'm in the Crusader. Catapult holds back and fires LRMs in duel. We both end up standing still at high elevation pounding on each other. End of ammunition (16 rounds later for me) the Catapult is missing LA, LT has no armor, CT has no armor and Engine hit, basically the guy was mauled. Now my armor wasn't pretty either, but as he closed I opened up at long range with SRM's and found left over ammunition (he had lost both LRM launchers before running out of ammo). Now the blast wasn't a lot, but it was enough! All he had left by the time he got really close was a barely functioning engine and gyro, two legs and a cockpit. Needless to say he couldn't jump, could flee and I cooked him.
Game 2: me in Catapult. Ok by jumping around a lot I was able to extend the LRM duel to 32 rounds. I actually did more damage cause I was able to get into that nice happy 7 hex range, and stay to his flanks, which limited his ability to fire back while letting me fire more. However, that thick armor was VERY telling and I just couldn't get through it to save my life. If I got to close he used the SRM's and shredded me. He also got lucky as he was manuvering forward and hit with an almost full spread of missiles. This caused much pain and suffering. No crits were landed till the duel got close. I switched over to Mediums, dropping the inefective LRM ammo, and stayed close and personal. However, his lasers and SRMs were able to inflict damage as well, and I was killed. However, this fight was a lot closer. I removed an arm and almost knocked his head off by the end of it.
Game 3: With my trusty Crusader repaired, I hear there is ANOTHER Catapult on the field. I am sent to investigate. Getting there we, again, commence in a long range duel. The computer seems to have a very limited AI approach to things. Again I shreded the armor but a lucky crit cooked off his LRM ammo which destroyed him by Round 6. I don't know if this really counts for statistical purposes, but it was fun. I had very light damage across my front.
Game 4: I'm back in the Catapult. At this point, i'm really not liking this machine, so i've decided to try something else. What i do is sprint for the far side of the board. Crusader follows, the occasional long shot falling short. I do this for about 30 rounds, keeping far away and behind cover, using Jump Jets and equal speed to maintain distance. He landed one or two good hits, but was soon out of ammo. I started firing. I danced in close to 12 hexes and started firing missiles faster then a fishwife can gossip. I was actually able to do some severe damage. He couldn't fire, but the problem was... I was spiking that heat up HIGH. And i kept having to run through his range, so he was really starting to hit me. Now I've already taken some damage and my armor is light as hell anyway, so this is starting to have an effect. So i'm loosing my arms and torso armor, and I drop the ammuntioin and aim to keep playing in his back and firing away with the Lasers. Problem was that this really does build up heat. 12 for the lasers, and plenty for the damn jump jets and i'm toasty warm. So i try alternating and the battle just drags. So I finally decide to run but he had manuvered me into a place I couldn't and I came under the direct firepower of all his glory and SRMS CAN BITE ME! They suck! Anyway I call this one a tie. We both withdrew from each other and wouldn't get close enough to use our weapons. My armor was gone, I was in a world of hurt, and so was he. Neither of really felt like pressing the attack cause it could go badly for either of us. So "Tie."
Catapult: 0 Wins, 3 Losses, 1 Tie
Crusader: 3 Wins, 0 Losses, 1 Tie
Raven!
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2003 15:11 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Not looking like the Catapult is doing too well, does it?
(damn snow...can't go to holland till monday grumble grumble grumble)
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2003 16:21 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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No. The Catapult kind of sucks for its mission profile. I'd say drop the jump jets for more armor.
Raven!
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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 08:34 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Quote:
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On 2003-12-06 16:21, Raven! wrote:
No. The Catapult kind of sucks for its mission profile. I'd say drop the jump jets for more armor. |
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That's because people are not using the Catapult for the mission it was designed for. Its a fire support 'Mech intended to support lance mates in the field with its LRMs.
The original write up states "designed as a second-line fire-suport system." Having it stand up in a dual with a Crusader just to see who is the better doesn't test its true capabilities. However, put the same two 'Mechs in a lance and allow it to do its job, then it will shine.
In my opinion the Catapult is a pure finesse 'Mech intended to move around the field and rain missiles down on targets while its lance mates do the fighting inclose and personal.
_________________
As always, enjoy!
Warner Doles
"Who am I? I am the right hand of fiat, tormentor of souls, death incarnate, and the last living writer you will ever see. Randall sent me."
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 12:12 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Lance 1:
Warhammer
Crusader
Wolverine
Locust
Lance 2:
Marauder
Catapult
Griffin
Wasp
Maps: Two standard battletech maps.
Battle:
Ok this is how it goes down. Everybody begins by manuvering for those perfect firing cells. Its almost like watching a sniper duel. Anyway, I'm commanding Lance 1, computer has lance 2. Intelligently the computer lines the Griffin, Catapult and Marauder up on a hill and just waits. So I steadly move forward, making sure to stop in the 22 to 25 hex range. Then I send the Locust in at full tilt, followed quickly by the Wolverine who either jumps or runs depending on manuvering bonuses.
They move the Wasp up in front of the lance, it jumps which makes it hard for my fire support to take it out, so I don't bother firing. However, at medium range they open up with PPC's, missing badly (conserving ammo for their missiles might be a good idea). I fire back with my AC/5 and hit, but hell thats just a glorified plink gun. My Locust gets close and starts running around the hill. I didn't want to get slowed down.
So we continue to dance with each other for another couple rounds (about ten to 16 rounds of random snipping) and he is actually firing off LRM's in an effort to hit that damn Wolverine. and the wolverine is taking hits. But i move my fire support team in close and start firing with PPCs and LRMs, and because they are standing still I am actually hitting, so i'm inflicting fairly good damage on them.
So the Locust has yet to fire (spending all of his time running around like a chicken with its head cut off) but he comes into the frey when by sheer luck I get one hex away from the wasps back. ALPHA STRIKE!  this is the SRM 2 Locust btw, so this really hurts the Wasp, almost compltely removing it from the fight as I score a crit against Gyro and Engine.
The Wolverine is getting pretty badly beaten up so I move to within minimum ranges, and really start letting them have it. Very few things can fire back at me: basically six medium lasers. So I've reduced the damage and my fire support team moves in closer. So my attacks are becoming stronger and they are trying to wipe out my light bird dogs in an effort to keep me from getting back shots (which I was now starting to get).
So they computer starts to ignore my lights and turns instead on my heavies (about time too) and they begin to really take it but just keep up their steady walk towards the battle. Both want to mix it up in close. The wolvering manages to punch the Catapult in the back and actually takes out a medium laser. The Locust took a PPC hit that it just couldn't recover from nad had to withdraw.
Unfortanitly another volley of PPC fire blew my locust right out of the water, and my Wolverine managed to actually finish pounding the Catapult before the Marauder blew it away with PPC shots at 4 hexes. (the catapult was personal )
Anyway the Griffin and Marauder are left, both hurt, my Crusader is out of ammo and closes in to really pound hard. The Warhammer just pounds away at the Marauder with those PPCs, and does a DAMN FINE JOB of it. The marauder is down three turns later, though the Warhammer won't be winning any beauty contests. The Griffin goes down a few rouns after that after engaging in a short range duel with the Crusader.
So I won with two mechs. The over all contribution of the Catapult was limited. The Crusader, as with all the Originals, performed EXCEDENGLY well.
Raven!
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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 13:02 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Fought the computer? Anyone can beat the computer. A computer cannot immulate the human mind. It cannot use abstract thinking. The true test should be two equally skilled players, in my opinion. Putting stock into MegaMek's abilities to "test" a theory isn't very solid for "proof" of the viability and reliability of a theory.
Had you fought me, I dare say it would have been far different of an outcome especially in the description of your movements to close and engage. However this is all supposition and proves nothing in my opinion. You should try it with a warm body instead of a program that is very limited in how it can react and respond to skilled player.
_________________
As always, enjoy!
Warner Doles
"Who am I? I am the right hand of fiat, tormentor of souls, death incarnate, and the last living writer you will ever see. Randall sent me."
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 15:33 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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| Anybody care to take bets on a Catapult vs. Thunderbolt duel? I'm probably going to do this evening, piloting a standard Catapult myself vs. a Thunderbolt SS. Gunnery/Piloting will be 3/3 for both.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 17:32 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Why didn't you object to the computer test that was one on one? or when Mud played against himself?
However, I do acknowledge that the computer is not the best. Hence I contacted a buddy of mine out in Cali and we're doing a play by email with the same units. We're only on turn one so don't expect anything for a few weeks.
However. Quick observation:
The catapult forming a firing line with a Marauder and a Griffin makes sound strategic sense. They held the Wasp in reserve to jump out and cause problems if I closed. All made very good sense. the computer maximized and minimized. However, my continuous running and jumping (strategiest that have been attacked on this board. I remember a post from years back when Gangrene wanted to have Jump Jet fuel cause people would just jump 24/7 and not get hit) kept his units off guard. As I was hitting and manuvering for the rear shots, he had to deal with that. All manuvers that the bot made, were perfectly sensible.
Now you might have tried something else and that is all well and good...
... but now we're no longer talking about the performance of the Catapult. We're talking about the performance of an individual leader.
When in a lance the Catapult supports or what not, but its overall impact is meaningless. Its just two lrm launchers. You can get that with any number of machines so therefore it really can't shine.
What makes something shine is that it is different. It is flexable. That is where the Crusader comes in. Not only did my Crusader fulfill the same roll as the Catapult, but it closed afterwards and started duking it out at close range with SRM support. The catapult by that point had fallen apart and its thin armor woudn't let it do that in the best of times.
No. Hands down for the Crusader. I'm sorry Warner, I just don't like the Catapult at all, its performance one on one and in a lance has been mediocre at best, and is easily done by any of a hundred other units.
Raven!
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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 20:03 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Quote:
| On 2003-12-07 17:32, Raven! wrote:
Why didn't you object to the computer test that was one on one? or when Mud played against himself? |
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First I didn't pay close attention to how it was being conducted. I just breezed over most of it not paying attention to references of MegaMek because I don't play it. Don't have the time to. Heck I don't have time to play CBT anymore come to think about it.
Quote:
| However, I do acknowledge that the computer is not the best. Hence I contacted a buddy of mine out in Cali and we're doing a play by email with the same units. We're only on turn one so don't expect anything for a few weeks. |
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That might be ok. However I'd perfer to see two people battle it out face to face. Call me old fashion in that regard! 
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| The catapult forming a firing line with a Marauder and a Griffin makes sound strategic sense. |
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I disagree. That elevates the Catapult to type of 'Mech for combat purposes as the others. Which it clearly is not.
The Catapult should have been in the back with the lance formed in a diamond with the Marauder as the point anchoring the formation. The Wasp and Griffin on the wings so they could cover the flanks and move to exploit an opening. The Catapult would offer fire support to the lance as needed.
I have observed too many battles than I care to remember and watched players do the same thing. Line them up and go at it. There's no tactics or strategic thought in that kind of battle. It comes down to who's got the most armor and the most in lucky shots.
In the formation I described, that "charge" of your Locust would have had to run through the firing arc of the Marauder. Say good by to the Locust. The formation offers the best in support to all lance members. Even if one decides to jump into the fray and get into someone's back, they will have to contend with the other members of the lance. Line abreast does not offer you that kind of fire support. If one can be outmaneuvered, then the rest can be too. At least with the Diamond formation they can turn towards any threat and deal with it with amassed firepower of the whole lance. You may not agree with it, but I've yet to have lost in a situation that I happened to deploy in that manner.
Quote:
| Now you might have tried something else and that is all well and good...... but now we're no longer talking about the performance of the Catapult. We're talking about the performance of an individual leader. |
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Which clearly is not one of the stellar capabilities of MegaMek. Like I said, had you faced me, the outcome would have been far different.
Quote:
| When in a lance the Catapult supports or what not, but its overall impact is meaningless. Its just two lrm launchers. You can get that with any number of machines so therefore it really can't shine. |
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Then your idea on what a firesupport 'Mech and mine is totally different. My use of the Catapult would have accented the firepower of the other 'Mechs while they engaged the reminder of your force. You could have the best force ever assembled on the board, but if you cannot use it effectively you will not win.
Quote:
| What makes something shine is that it is different. It is flexable. That is where the Crusader comes in. Not only did my Crusader fulfill the same roll as the Catapult, but it closed afterwards and started duking it out at close range with SRM support. The catapult by that point had fallen apart and its thin armor woudn't let it do that in the best of times. |
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Maybe. However we are discussing two 'Mechs that are designed for totally different missions. The Crusader is not a fire support 'Mech. It is a brawler with long range capabilities where as the Catapult is not. Sure it has 4 medium lasers which do more concentrated damage then the SRMs, those are for defense of the 'Mech not for an offensive role. Add in the fact it doesn't have the armor the Crusader it is clearly designed to sit in the back and rain missiles down on targets of opportunity or when called on.
Quote:
| No. Hands down for the Crusader. I'm sorry Warner, I just don't like the Catapult at all, its performance one on one and in a lance has been mediocre at best, and is easily done by any of a hundred other units. |
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Be that as it may, it is your opinion. And from my perspective and experience, I whole heartedly disagree with you. The Thunderbolt, Orion and Vindicator I killed with Catapult in one battle certainly speaks volumns in my book. If I have the choice, I will always pick the Catapult over a Crusader any day. I bet you'd change your mind if you used the Kuritian variant of the Capatpult too. That would kill a Crusader quickly... 
_________________
As always, enjoy!
Warner Doles
"Who am I? I am the right hand of fiat, tormentor of souls, death incarnate, and the last living writer you will ever see. Randall sent me."
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8075
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 20:12 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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On 2003-12-07 20:03, Warner wrote:
Call me old fashion in that regard!
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OK, you're old fashion.
You know, if it's there I gotta take it.  
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2003 21:35 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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HES AN OLD FASIONED OLDIE! 
hahaha
Sorry.
again, I'm not questiong your strategic abilities with the Catapult, all I'm saying is that any strategy you employ to make it "really hurt" could be done with an Archer/Bombadier/<insert missile boat of your choice here>
Your diamond fomration I've seen before (not saying it would work, with 4/5 pilots moving and firing at fast moving targets becomes an issue), and i've actually used it. I perfer a strong anchor with two wings myself (hence why I had the Locust and Wolverine weaving about as the Warhammer and Crusader moved up). its a strategy i picked up on playing soccer.
All I'm saying is that in about five or six years of playing, the Catapult is a rarely seen opponent, and there is a reason for this. It sucks. Sure you could probably use it to good effect, but how much of that is the machine and how much the pilot? Hell if i was really interested I could win a fight or two with it. But if i'm going to go in to a fight with two LRM15s i'm taking the Kuritan version of the Archer not the Catapult
Those two large lasers scream love.
Raven!
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 08-Dec-2003 01:15 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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On 2003-12-07 21:35, Raven! wrote:
But if i'm going to go in to a fight with two LRM15s i'm taking the Kuritan version of the Archer not the Catapult
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Two LRM-15s? That's two Thunderbolts, not an Archer
It is true the LRM boats should work in a team. One of the most evil fire support lances I've seen consisted of two Archers, an Axman and a Wolverine. Lots of long-range firepower but also the Axman's AC/20 if someone decides to close with the Archers. The Wolverine might not be the best medium mech in the world, but it's tough and capable as part of a lance.
_________________
A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 08-Dec-2003 09:27 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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| I have to agree about the Kurita version of the Catapult; nasty! I've never had the chance to actually use one in a game, but I intend on changing that as soon as possible. You could probably put a serious hurtin' on some assault 'mechs with that thing.
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