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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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 Posted: 04-Dec-2003 20:30 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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Mud,
With a 4/5 gunner/pilot, that Gyro hit should have really sucked badly.
Your opponent didn't sound like he used many of his advantages.
If he engaged you at long range, that was dumb.
If he didn't worry about heat till he hit about 16, then he wasn't aggressive enough up close.
If he didn't kick your ass once he hit the gyro, then he didn't play very smart.
Once he got the gyro hit and you couldn't run without a pilot check at +3, you should have been toast.
I admit that I am rather aggressive when I get an advantage, but it sounds like your friend didn't press any of his advantages.
Pin
_________________
"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 04-Dec-2003 23:02 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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| I knew all of the Catapult advocates would be skeptics. I'm going to rerun the battle when I return from Holland, and this time I'm going to run the Catapult myself. Still, I've got to say some of you seem to have an exaggerated view of the Catapult's virtues. As for the gyro hit, that could have been bad, but the Crusader managed to tag that LRM ammo before the Catapult could get close enough to start kicking. Don't forget about the armor differential. True, I got lucky with the concentration of my LRM fire peeling off the Cat's right side so quickly, but the paltry armor on the arms and torsos certainly didn't make my job any harder.
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 10:55 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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Mud, you have rightly pointed out some truths. However, to satisfiy the gods of statistical absolutes, a few more tests need to be run. I would be running a few myself had I an opponent. Therefore, I must rely on others to do battle.
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"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 13:38 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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Quote:
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On 2003-12-04 15:56, -Mud wrote:
Hey Paul, do you really live in Holland? I'm going to be in Amsterdam to see Ween next week.
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I suppose I ought to change that. I used to live in Holland, but moved to the US some 2 years ago.
I used to live in a town called Duiven, which is near Arnhem, altogether some 1.5-2 hours away from Amsterdam.
I hope you have a good time!
You planning on staying there long?
Paul
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 14:15 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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Mud,
I guess I should have couched my comments.. I believe any time two mechs are fairly evenly matched (which these two are), the skill of the players involved can easily override any advantages/disadvantages of the designs.
By your description of the battle, I have to make the judgement that you are a much more skilled player than your opponent, at least in these two designs.
Pin
_________________
"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 15:17 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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| I'd be willing to run a match online against anyone who wishes to cooperate with me. However, I'm going on vacation tomorrow, so I'm not going to be around for about a week....once I get back from Holland though I'll bring it up again.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 15:20 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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| Kind of funny you say that; actually, he beats me more often than not. I'm really not a particularly skilled btech player. Now challenge me to some Axis and Allies, however, and I'll mop the floor with most opponents...I guess I just have more of a strategic than tactical mindset.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 15:23 Post subject: p.s. |
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| I did get pretty lucky in this match too, don't forget that. My LRM clusters tended to hit the same locations over and over, and I also consistantly struck with at least nine missiles out of fifteen. The Catapult didn't hit as often with the LRMs in the opening stages of the battle, and when it did the damage clusters were a lot more spread out. The Crusader had a lot of pockmarks by the end of the battle, and certainly couldn't have taken on another challenger, but most of the damage was just armor damage and was spread out widely over the chassis.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 15:53 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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I'm only going to be in Amsterdam for four nights...my only reason for going over there is to see Ween (well, not my only reason; I was there about two years ago and loved the place). Are you ethnically Dutch, or did you just move back to USA?
I hope this snow lets up though...I don't feel like waiting around at Newark Airport for 8 hours waiting for the runway to be clear.
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 16:24 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round One |
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I'm in like Flynn. Just let me know when you're back. Enjoy the pleasures of Holland (wink, wink, nudge, nudge....say no more, say no more).
_________________
"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 17:47 Post subject: Catapult vs Crusader Round Two |
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Contrary to expectations, I was able to squeeze in another test. I didn't have an opponent, so I ran both sides of the fight myself, a method I admit has it's disadvantages. But still, the results were the same as the first battle, but a lot closer. I didn't close with the Catapult until after all of the LRMs were exhausted. During the LRM duel, in which both 'mechs stood and delivered, each side took about 24 points of damage to arms and torsos. The two 'mechs then maneuvered for advantage for awhile, and finally came to blows in a patch of flat wooded terrain. The Catapult held it's own fairly well. However, the Jump Jets were not as much of an advantage as anticipated. I could get into the Crusader's rear arc easily enough, but combining the woods with the Jump Jets meant he didn't hit the rear too many times. Regardless, he did penetrate the Crusader's rear right torso, but that was meaningless as all LRM ammo had been depleted by this point. The Catapult did manage to get in a good kick at an already damaged leg, and had it been able to get in more kicks the Crusader might have been left legless, but it got only one further opportunity at a kick, and as it had jumped that round and was in woods, the pilot needed a 9 to land it and missed. The mediums were of little help in seeking out vulnerable points in the Crusader either, although they did respectable damage, including a pair of head shots. Ironically, the tactic of jumping behind the Crusader gave the Crusader an opportunity to cool down, as it was relying on it's fists rather than the Lasers and Missiles, nullifying the Catapult's heat sink advantage.
The Crusader's short range firepower stood it in good stead; even the machine guns made a contribution to the pounding of the Catapult. The SRMs found a critical hit (one of the Catapult's MLs) near the end of the game. Additionally, the Crusader managed to pound the Catapult at one point for 24 points of damage and knocked the Catapult over, which severly hurt the Catapult's position for the next round, resulting in another solid pounding. It's fists were good deterrents to the Catapult's jumping behind and kicking with impunity; the Crusader would always have at least one chance for a head shot in that case. In the end it was the fists which proved decisive, as I landed a swing on the Catapult which destroyed the head. However, this only came as the result of a calculated risk on both sides. The Catapult, which had lost initiative, choose to stand it's ground in heavy woods, hoping for another kick which would knock out the Crusader's damaged leg; the Crusader charged in with both fists swinging, aware of the leg vulnerability, but also knowing it would only take one fist to finish the fight...thus, in the end, this battle was decided not by the merits of one design over the other, but by the dice. The Catapult also might have been better served by maintaining a little more range and trying to force the Crusader to consume it's SRM ammo on difficult shots; of course, if the Crusader pilot simply conserved the ammo for good opportunities, this tactic might not have any legs.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 18:18 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round Two |
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(poke) Ok question, cause I am missing the answer here..
You said that during the LRM duel, both mechs stood there and launched..
(If that is misquoted I apologize)... My question is this... Why would a Catapult pilot ever do that? With less armor, he can't take the hits, so why would he ever let himself be targetted? If he so much as walks or runs, the to hit number jumps from 8s to 9s or 10s..
The LRM duel is NOT where that Catapult wants to be.. An Archer is a LRM duelist.. A Crusader is an LRM duelist.. Mechs that have lots of armor and lots of LRMs do decently in an LRM slog.
The Cat, has thinner armor, which puts it at a huge disadvantage if it wants to just sit there and take it. It should NEVER stand still. The Cat really doesn't care whether it does much damage with the LRMs, as long as he doesn't get wasted in return.
As an example, I just fought the two out (against myself, yeah not a great method), and the Crusader who wanted long range stood in a decent spot and tried to minimize the modifiers. The Cat wanting to get close used full movement and rolled in quickly.
After 3rd turn, the mechs were in medium range. 4 LRMs were fired by each mech and 1 hit from the Crusader, none from the Cat.
Once the mechs got close it got ugly. Each time the Cat lost initiative, he used terrain and his jump ability to make it tough for the Crusader. The Crusader had to try to keep the Cat about 3 to 4 hexes away, due to the ability to jump.
Up close it came down to 4 ML against 2 ML and 2 SRM4s. The end result was closer than I thought, and I admit that the Cat got in a two lucky shots (rolled snake eyes twice). The one in the RT missed the ammo, but the one in the CT didn't. I threw out this result and gave the CRU an engine hit.
Both mechs ended up looking like swiss cheese, but the end winner was the Cat. Never kicked, always used his MLs.. If he got directly behind the Cru (happened twice) the Cru could only fire a single ML, or had one punch.
Had I started with an LRM duel, the Cat would have been defeated handily.
Pin
_________________
"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2003 18:56 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader Round Two |
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Pinhead wrote: (sorry, don't know how to use that quote feature)
"The Cat, has thinner armor, which puts it at a huge disadvantage if it wants to just sit there and take it. It should NEVER stand still. The Cat really doesn't care whether it does much damage with the LRMs, as long as he doesn't get wasted in return."
It makes you wonder what the Cat is doing carrying around those LRMs in the first place, if there is no real way for him to use them effectively against other long-range 'mechs. I considered taking the route you did, but remember, the Crusader still came out on top in the LRM duel in your game, though not by very much. Had the Catapult moved, it would have driven up the numbers for both itself and the Crusader by about the same amount, so I figured it was better for the Catapult to simply use its LRMs up at long range so it wouldn't have to worry about critical ammo explosions under it's weak torso armor.
As for the Crusader's tactics, I think once he gets in close he's best off going hand-to-hand wherever he can against the Catapult. Sure, the Catapult's kick is dangerous, but two fists to the head is more dangerous. (I've got a pretty vivid mental image of the Crusader gouging out relatively hapless Catapult's cockpit). There's going to be plenty of times the Catapult pilot won't let you get that close, but remember you can still use the SRMs in addition to the fists, and it's a lot easier on the Crusader's limited heat dissipation system. With any luck, you've got a decent chance of at least one head shot. Also, if you loose initiative, stand still instead of trying to avoid the back shot; you're not going to be able to anyway, and you'll still get a shot off with one of your arm mounted weapons if you torso-twist. I really wish they hadn't mounted the M.G.s on the Crusader; they're really just dead weight and you could have put on two more M. Lasers in the bargain; you couldn't use them all of the time, but they'd be handy against a jumping Catapult.
A charge attack could also be devastating here; it could be an especially good move on the Catapult's part if it hasn't taken too much damage, as the damage you inflict in a 5 or 6 hex charge would nulify the Crusader's advantage in armor. I never had a chance to try this though; the LRM duel did too much damage to the Catapult, and I couldn't get the Crusader into position without essentially making a stupid move on the part of the Catapult.
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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2003 10:33 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Interesting topic.
Both 'Mechs have their uses and both are great platforms. One is a true fire suport 'Mech (Catapult) while the other (Crusader) is designed to slug it out in close; a bawler if you will.
My preference is the Catapult personally. Though I've used both, my success has always been with the Catapult, particularly the CTPL-C1. My best fight was at GenCon 99 in the first round of the open. I deployed a lance consisting of the CGR-1A5 Charger, Kuritian version of the Wolverine and Trebuchet and the CTPL-C1.
My opponent deployed a lance consisting of a standard Thunderbolt, Orion, Wolverine and Vindicator 3L.
After 3 hours I was left with my Catapult and he had his Orion, T-Bolt and Vindicator. His Orion was pristen while the T-Bolt had moderate battle damage and his Vindicator had been savaged by my Charger. All my Catapult had left was one round for each LRM15, all its medium lasers and no armor damage.
I found myself at 7 hexes away from the three remaining 'Mechs. I fired on missile salvo and all medium lasers. I hit with everything in the torso containing all his ammuntion. KaBOOM! Dead 'Mech. Then all hell broke loose. I jumped, ran and dodged throughout the light wooded map while he fired at me. The T-Bolt couldn't hit me for nothing. He tried to flush me with his Vindie.. but when he got into optimum range I unloaded on him again. I blew off his RA and Left Leg. Vindie fell on its CT and 3 crit himself and punched his engine out through the back of his 'Mech! 
The T-Bolt and Catapult sniped at each other when I finally charged in close. We traded shots. He would hit me with his LL where I could take the damage. that battle alone lasted 30 minutes. In the end, my Catapult was laying on back with its left leg gone and only 3 medium lasers left. He moved one hex from me. He fired everything trying to kill me but only succeeded in hit me where I had the armor to absorb the damge. I fired my 3 medium lasers. Two hit in CT and one in the head. Had 5 crits in CT destroyed his engine and Gyro and my medium laser to the head killed his pilot with a crit to the cockpit after getting through his last four points of armor.
I have since retired the miniature from normal play. I only use it on special occassions now or when I put that lance together and field it in a battle.
[ This Message was edited by: Warner on 2003-12-06 10:36 ]
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As always, enjoy!
Warner Doles
"Who am I? I am the right hand of fiat, tormentor of souls, death incarnate, and the last living writer you will ever see. Randall sent me."
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2003 11:42 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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| Once he had you on your back, why didn't the T-bolt simply move back to ten hexes and snipe with the Large Laser until he finally totally disabled the Catapult. It's not like the 'pult could have done anything about it?
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