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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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 Posted: 14-Oct-2002 18:52 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Chihawk, I guess my main point can be summed up as follows:
If the GR is is use, it has a MAJOR DRAWBACK. It CAN EXPLODE (as you have pointed out). But if it is turned off it is the "same" as not having one available, so there is no advantage "of having one." Sure it can be turned on, BUT then it can explode. In summary there is no advatange or disadvantage to having it turned off per say. You just don't have the darn thing.
But I suppose I can see where you are coming from. But I think my above statment, combined with what Sir Henry just said makes for a VERY STRONG ARGUEMENT INDEED.
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 19:02 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Quote:
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On 2002-10-14 18:52, AlexxKnight wrote:
Chihawk, I guess my main point can be summed up as follows:
If the GR is is use, it has a MAJOR DRAWBACK. It CAN EXPLODE (as you have pointed out). But if it is turned off it is the "same" as not having one available, so there is no advantage "of having one." Sure it can be turned on, BUT then it can explode. In summary there is no advatange or disadvantage to having it turned off per say. You just don't have the darn thing.
But I suppose I can see where you are coming from. But I think my above statment, combined with what Sir Henry just said makes for a VERY STRONG ARGUEMENT INDEED.
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You're seperating "using" and "having"?
That, my friend, is the definition of munchkin.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 19:58 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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The points you people are making are just fine. Your problem is in not understanding that it's a level 3 rule. There are reasons for having different levels of rules. It allows people to play the game at whatever depth they choose, but yet be able to expect/know what those rules are. In your own gaming circles you can of course use whatever rules you wish, be they official, home brewed or something very diffent such as Ravens! "Cry Freedom".
No one is stopping you or suggesting that you are not playing the game correctly/honestly. The reasons why the levels are there are so if you play people at cons, via email or players you've never met, that there can be a level of play that is set for everyone without question.
If we were to agree and say "yeah, that's okay for level two it just makes common sense and is easy to add..." well, what next? Disingaging PPC field inhibitors? Hot loading LRMs? Shouldn't they too be level 2? HELL NO! Accept that they are level 3 and play the damn game anyway you wish!!!!!!
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 20:01 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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On 2002-10-14 16:39, Major Dan wrote:
When the above AC/20 Atlas loses his RT armor, he runs off, dumps the AC ammo, and can (stupidly) return to the fight. The above GR Atlas loses RT armor and runs/dies.
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His ammo can still explode while he's dumping it. I personally have never seen an Atlas "run off" from a fight. What the heck was he fighting? Urbies and Annhilators with actuator hits?
If you fight in a mech with an XL engine to get the BFG,than expect to get your due cause it's a double edged sword.
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 20:01 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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that works. Hey its one of the reasons I went and made my own game. I thought a lot of stuff people were saying made sense logically so I tried to put it into a gaming format.
Raven!
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 20:09 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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I guess Hohiro is right. THere is nothing to be gained in further arguing about this. After all i guess we are jsut arguing semantics here. Also I'd like to go on the record and say that I didn't realize that this level 3 Rule even existed, before I read Talen's Post. I had been under the delusion that it wasn't possible to even turn the darn things off in the first place.
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 21:13 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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I like the point about out of ammo. The Gauss is supposed to suffer damage from all that power stored up in its capacitors when it is hit. But if the ammo is gone, it seems to me the mech computer would shut it down automatically, since there's nothing left to shoot and no further reason to charge the weapon up again.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 10:33 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Quote:
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On 2002-10-14 19:02, chihawk wrote:
You're seperating "using" and "having"?
That, my friend, is the definition of munchkin.
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So how about just allowing you to shut it off, period? It has to be initialized again by your techs. That would make it equal to any other ammo-dependent weapon.
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Major Dan
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 18
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 12:05 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Quote:
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On 2002-10-14 20:01, Horhiro wrote:
Quote:
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On 2002-10-14 16:39, Major Dan wrote:
When the above AC/20 Atlas loses his RT armor, he runs off, dumps the AC ammo, and can (stupidly) return to the fight. The above GR Atlas loses RT armor and runs/dies.
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His ammo can still explode while he's dumping it. I personally have never seen an Atlas "run off" from a fight. What the heck was he fighting? Urbies and Annhilators with actuator hits?
If you fight in a mech with an XL engine to get the BFG,than expect to get your due cause it's a double edged sword.
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The point behind my post was that a mech with an Ultra AC10 (wont use AC20 because it has short range) can fire all of his ammo, and then have a whole bunch of crit slots that he doesnt care about getting hit. A mech with a Guass Rifle can fire fewer rounds, and then has to deal with an AC20 hit to internal structure only. Neither weapon has ANY advantages after the ammo has been expended. None. And the Guass weighs a bit more (IIRC) which means its more dead weight after the ammo is gone. With an open torso, the UAC10 mech runs into some trees, risks death for 1 turn, and then returns to combat with lots of free crits. Open torso on the GR mech means early retirement.
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 14:10 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Which is why I think you have to let them turn the thing off, especially if you are playing a MEchWarrior Game, and it is a PC in the cockpit.
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 6088
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 14:53 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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I can't believe this thread is still going on! I'm not sure what everyone is really arguing about. It's a unanimous observation that in a Level 2 game, it CAN NOT be turned off, period! End of discussion!
In a level 3 game, whatever the GM decides to do is there perrogative. There's no, "that's not right", "you shouldn't do that" side to the argument. There's a reason it's level 3. It means do what you want with the rules.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 15:49 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Ummmm, no.
Please read (or reread) my posts on the matter for my reasons.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 16:00 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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It is stated somewhere that if your GR exlpodes that you mech is destroyed? I've seen plenty of mechs survive. I've seen plenty of mechs survive ammo explosions also. With the invention of case and light engines (regular engines at that) there is no reason to fear losing your mech from either such explosion in all cases.
The AC10/Ultra cannot be compared to the GR. Only the Clan ER PPC can. Why? because they are both long range head capping weapons. IMHO the GR has a drawback (exploding) to counter act that such power. The Clan ER PPC does not which is why munchkins love to put them on their IS designs.
I'll stick to my guns, if you play a mech with an XL engine in order to get a BFG-Head Capper at Long Range, than expect to take the downside of such a decision.
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Major Dan
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 18
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 19:03 Post subject: RE: Here's a thought |
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Quote:
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On 2002-10-15 15:49, chihawk wrote:
Ummmm, no.
Please read (or reread) my posts on the matter for my reasons.
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After rereading your reasons, and looking at a few things, I find myself questioning why I disagree with you.
Guass Rifle (1 ton ammo) BV 358
UAC10 (2 tons ammo) BV 311
Guass Rifle fires 8 rounds doing 120 damage (possible one shot kills), and then is a risk to the battlemech.
UAC10 fires 20 rounds (taking 10 turns to do so) doing 200 damage, and afterwards is no risk to the mech.
A 47BV difference (less actually because the UAC10 with 2 tons ammo is 15 tons, GR with 1 ton is 16) isnt enough (IMHO) to justify the headchoppage and no other penalties. I may just disallow powering off GR's in the future
Major Dan, whos world view just got skewed
Yes the Guass is a headchopper, but
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