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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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 Posted: 16-Sep-2002 11:56 Post subject: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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Its bothered me for quite some time now.
1.Why do Fusion reactor Aerospace fighters require Fuel. (I konw it says for turning but, I think that is a lame reason)
2.Since they require a Fuel allocation, Shouldnt I.C.E engine Vehicles, Vtols and, Mechs Require a Fuel allocation as well.
The reason I disagree with the entire fuel on a aerospace is, to me, the use of a Fusion engines was to negate the NEED for fuel. Im really guessing the only reason they added it was to balance the game.
So its a item about B-Tech that has bothered me for quite a while, and I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
Stinger
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Shadowking
Kell Hounds
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Joined: 22-May-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Sep-2002 12:12 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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I believe VTOL's and normal vehicles already do carry fuel (thus the fuel crit explosion for vehicles). You simply do not need to accolate it is all. It's considered a given that the vehicles will have enough to always run. Go figure. As for aero's, I think they were originally given fuel accolations in order to limit their time on the battlefield during a game. Otherwise it'd become more of an aero game instead of a mech game 
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Sep-2002 16:13 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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1] because you need a reaction mass to propel in order to attain thrust. mechs, vehicles, and vetols have mechanicle movement systems: mech>legs, vehicles>treads and wheels, vtols>rotary fan, same goes for hover units. while powered by the fusion engine, it alone provids no thrust.... but a means to heat/ignite the reaction mass. if you read somewhere under jump jets, it stats that they carry a small amout of mercury [i believe] that is used on airless worlds as a reaction mass. thats why space vessels need fuel. as to why they need fuel while in atmosphere, ever tried to get a 100ton aircraft to fly only using a giant hairdryer....
2] its pre-figured in. for me, it explains why ICE engines weight so much. a 2ton engine will probly need 2tons of fuel to run for the entire battle opperation. i've tried makin some fuel usage system, but it bogs down play to quickly.
hope that helps.
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Alexander
Heavy Horse Merc Brigade
Commanding Officer
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 828
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 16-Sep-2002 21:13 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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2] its pre-figured in. for me, it explains why ICE engines weight so much. a 2ton engine will probly need 2tons of fuel to run for the entire battle opperation. i've tried makin some fuel usage system, but it bogs down play to quickly.
hope that helps.
[/quote]
I don't know if I agree with that totally. If you look at most tanks, you have a 200litre to 400litre fuel tank, and that'll run the vehicle for about two days, (if you run it nearly 24 hours a day), or between 300 and 600km. It's Canadian Army doctrine to refuel the tanks every night before going into a harbour (large tank campsite!), and it normally takes just a few minutes to do this by Jerry can, or even less if you have a dedicated fuel tanker with two pumps simultaneously filling two vehicles.
Therefore, the reason I don't think vehicles are allocated fuel points is because it's not really a point to worry about in small battles. On campaign type games, I always worry about fuel, but I play like I do in real life, and refuel every day, or whenever I get the chance!
Alexander
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Sep-2002 12:40 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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Actually in a few of the novels they have alluded to expolding jumpjet fuel. But then they have also alluded to it being fented from the fusion reactor. So, hence my question.
And Im familar with what they have said about reaction mass and the like. But then to me that means the weight of the aerospace engine should be much much lighter. To me it means that the "engine" is really only on board for powering some systems not propelling the craft, if this is the case then................
ARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!
....I was typing along and lost my train of though. I hada good reason for this and for the life ov me I cant remember what I was going to type. 
*string is cursing directed at myself*
Where is the Ginko?
Stinger
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 17-Sep-2002 18:15 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-09-17 12:40, Stinger wrote:
Actually in a few of the novels they have alluded to expolding jumpjet fuel. But then they have also alluded to it being fented from the fusion reactor. So, hence my question.
And Im familar with what they have said about reaction mass and the like.To me it means that the "engine" is really only on board for powering some systems not propelling the craft, if this is the case then................
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A brief explanation because this question pop ups regularly.
The fusion reactor both provides power for the systems craft *and* creates thrust (moves the craft)
This is done using Magneto HydroDynamics (MHD)
The fusion reactor produces a great deal of electricity , this is used to create a magnetic field to accelerate the reaction mass that is Hydrogen (H2) wich is spewed out thourgh the thruster nozzles moving the craft forward ( One of Newton's Laws, for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction)
H2 is used as both the reactor fuel (not plain hydrogen but two isotopes of it, deuterium and tritum), and as reaction mass because having the smallest atomic mass of all the elements, it's easily accelerated to tremendous speed. The individual thrust of each atom is nil, but by accelerating lots and lots of them, great thrust can be achieved.
The fuel consumption of an aerospace craft represents the fuel used as reaction mass. Comsumption of fuel for the fusion reaction is negligible.
Jump jets in 'Mechs work on the same principle. Though a 'Mech is not an aerospace fighter, their thrust is very small, and they carry very little fuel, so they can only make short hops. I would guess 'Mechs that make an orbital drop would have to carry additional fuel.
That's the gist of it, please ask if I missed anything.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2002 06:47 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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Yep, that is my take on it. The fuel is actually reaction mass. kind of like using a water pump to suck in and push out water. The fusion engine is the pump and uses negligable fuel. If you are on land and need to move, you would need a water tank.
That is what the aerofighters are doing. I think they get an extra boost from using reactor heat too. the reactor heat may be used in overthrust/ Max thrust?
For ICE vehicles, they would be using fossil fuel. Considering the length of your average fight in battletech, the fuel would not be a factor. I also think that the weight of the engines is also designed to consider fuel tankage. I would not consider fuel an issue unless you get involved with a guerrilla campaign, or a campaign where a lot of supply dumps get hit.
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Shadowking
Kell Hounds
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Joined: 22-May-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2002 10:24 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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| well, within maxtech rules, any fuel crit on a fusion engined vehicle simply becomes a normal engine crit rather than the fuel exploding. Which would tend to mean that the non-ice engined vehicles carry no actual fuel
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2002 13:24 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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I have noticed that in Aerotech the fuel is consumed way to quick, Its been a while since I Looked at the rules, 1 turn could use anywhere from 1 to 25 thrust points (fuel points) Depending on speed. Now you get 15 points of fule per ton. So in an prolonged battle it sould not be uncommon to see a fighter dead in the air due to no more fuel for turning, or slowing down or speeding up. Now for a unit moving at a velocity of 10 requires 5 points pre facing change, If your moving at 16 your consumption jumps to 11 per facing. You also expend them for slowing down. Say you want to slow down from 16 to 10 (to conserve fuel) that costs you 6 fuel points to slow down and then 5 for per facing for your turn. A craft like the Clans Vandal has 3 tons of fuel for 45 points total. This craft moves at 10SF 15OT (Safe thrust and Over thrust). So in about 5 turns its going to be out of fuel and useless.
This is where I dislike the entire fuel rules for Aerospace. I think it add a dimention to the aero tech rules that makes it less enjoyable. I can see after 4 or 5 games ending with several craft floating in space that people would turn away from this game.
Adam
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2002 14:46 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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They adjusted the fuel points per ton big time in AT2. It think it is about impossible to run out of fuel now.
If you are playing old school AT, grab the Slayer, double fuel loadout and shoot down the guys without any gas.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2002 15:46 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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I did ground school for airplanes. The 3 most important things pilots sweat is fuel, fuel and fuel. Aerospace fighters running out of fuel and drifting in a long battle would not be surprising- for a GREEN force.
Any aerojock with experience would know when it was time to go get fuel instead of fighting.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2002 11:54 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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I agree that the biggest worry for current fighter pilots is Fuel. From the sims Ive played I've found that that is my biggest concern. (lame comparison since I havent really flown but they done a decent job in some of the sims).
I havent seen the aerospace2 rules yet. But I hope they did improve fuel, and if they did GREAT! I hope they did it would make the engagements last a bit longer. Is it out yet or are they still working on it?
Stinger
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Shadowking
Kell Hounds
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| Posted: 20-Sep-2002 14:33 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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| I think with at2 fuel changes, you can basicly fly back and forth from each jump point a few times going full thrust and still have plenty left over to stop by the local eatery for a bite to eat afterwards =P
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
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| Posted: 01-Oct-2002 18:54 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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With a dropship that might be possible. They would be the equivalent of Zepplins. An Aerofighter however, not being able to "float", would be more like todays planes with flight/ fuel ratings only good for hours.
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Ronin
ComStar
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| Posted: 21-Oct-2002 01:14 Post subject: RE: Ok This is a question I've had for a while.... |
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| Fuel endureance depends on engine output. Most jet fighters will run through their entire fuel load in a matter of minutes if they were to run on full throttle/afterburner. I'm finishing the cross-country phase of my private pilot license, and fuel endurance is indeed a critical issue. I can go from 3 to 6 hours on full tanks depending on what I set my throttle at. If I cruise at full power with a properly leaned mixture I can go for 3 and a half hours and still have a 30 minute reserve. Or I can cruise at about 55% power setting and fly for about 6 hours or so, but I'll take longer to get there. It all depends on on how far you are going, how fast you need to get there, and if fuel stops are available en route.
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