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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 27-Jun-2002 13:30 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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The process to get the pharse added was done correctly and legally via the rules of the Consitution, so I would say yes it was.
But as we have seen after 40 some years one man feels other wise and can't teach his daughter to think for her self...sad really.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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RFalcon
Clan Nova Cat
Star Captain
Joined: 01-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 156
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 13:32 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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On 2002-06-27 13:29, Vampire wrote:
What other monotheists are out there? So the only ones that might take issue with that are politheists and other assorted heathens and unbelievers.
The constitution represents the will of the people, and if the majority of the people support religion, then the above mentioned groups get screwd and shut up. The few can't force the many to please them.
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For that quote alone your should be kicked out of the US! One of the basic founding beliefs of the US is that ANYONE CAN BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY WANT!!!! Your statement is the most asinine and wrong statement I have read in a long time.
You should be ashamed.
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Nova Commander Tarn (Elam)
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Warmonger
Clan Blood Spirit
Star Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 84
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 13:47 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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Well, as the board's only 'open' atheist, I think I should chime in here, one way or the other. On the court case, I think the people pressing it have got one of the all-time biggest self-righteous crusader bugs up their ass. I gave some thought to this matter a few years ago, and decided that it doesn't really matter that much. Sure, I may be a little uncomfortable when that comes up, but the effort required to 'fix' the situation would be absolutely incomprehensible, compared to the small amount of whatever to be gained. Because really, at this point, there is no way of removing such a pervasive element of our society. Religion is here to stay, because people need it in their lives. I have an idea why this is so, but it might cause undue stress on this already volatile topic, so I'll keep it to myself.
And Ronin, one thing. If, and that's a BIG if, we removed all references to god from our government, why would we need to remove any references to God from our history books. This reasons behind our past actions and accomplishments would not change, even if we later discovered that the reasons were 'wrong', or whatever. The actions were still taken, and they still had their effects, regardless of the why's involved.
Thank you.
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"A man who does not speak his own words, does not think his own thoughts." -me
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Warmonger
Clan Blood Spirit
Star Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 84
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 13:50 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-06-27 13:32, RFalcon wrote:
For that quote alone your should be kicked out of the US! One of the basic founding beliefs of the US is that ANYONE CAN BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY WANT!!!! Your statement is the most asinine and wrong statement I have read in a long time.
You should be ashamed.
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Vampire doesn't live in the US. And even if he did, he could still say that due to freedom of speech.
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"A man who does not speak his own words, does not think his own thoughts." -me
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 917
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 13:55 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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"Never discuss religion of politics with your friends,they will cease to be" 
I think we are done with this.
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Memento audare semper
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RFalcon
Clan Nova Cat
Star Captain
Joined: 01-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 156
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 13:58 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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vampire: Yes.
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Nova Commander Tarn (Elam)
3rd BattleMech Star
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[ This Message was edited by: RFalcon on 2002-06-27 14:03 ]
_________________
Nova Commander Tarn (Elam)
3rd BattleMech Star
1st Battle Trinary
8th Scorpion Uhlans (The Crimson Legion)
Gamma Galaxy (The Cave Dwellers)
Clan Golaith Scorpion
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 15:35 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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Just a gentle reminder....so far this topic has stayed pretty safe. Should it suddenly veer out of control the appropriate action(s) will be taken.
Now, my 2¢....and I say the following just so you have a frame of reference for my POV. I am an ardent believer in the separation of Church and State; so much so that I feel that should a Church--any Church--begin to become politically active it should lose it's tax exempt status and be treated like a business and be taxed accordingly. If they want the Government to stay out of their affairs then they should stay out of the Government's.
So even though I believe in the total seperation of Chruch and State I have no issue with "under God" in the Pledge or "In God we trust" on the money, etc. I couldn't care less actually.
People forget that one of the rights we don't have as Americans is the right not to be offended. I'm offended by many things in life, but I get over it. And I do so without forcing others to believe what I believe.
And that's all I'm going to say about this...
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 19:39 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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I'll second Chihawk on this one, lets all keep it calm and civil! I, for one, believe that if God really is out there (I don't know personally) I don't think he wants us fighting over His name being used or not being used. I just think its important that if you're going to discuse religion or God that you keep in mind God is supposed to be about love and tollerence. We can make a difference!
Raven, hoping that he has made a little difference!
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 21:18 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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First off, I need to give Rfalcon a cookie for the "Get out of the US, Vampire!" line. I don't think I giggled as much as our resident bloodsucker, but, that just tickled me something awful. Hehhehee. "Yeah! You! Guy over in some other country, like France or, or Germany, or, or, or Idaho! Yeah! Like it or leave it, bu... wait. You're not here? You've *never* been here?"
Hehehehehehhee
Now, to Vampire, I have to lob a seat cushin. Monotheism is a lagre religion, to be sure, but be wary of linking 'Polytheistic' and 'Heathen' ... yes, technically, heathen's an accurate term due to definition, but, it's a word with extreme negative connotations. I know a few native Americans and a *buttload* of Hindus who might get riled up.
Lastly, while the 9th sicruit will, as usual, get overturned, they do kinda have a point. A McCarthy-era anti-communist insertion to the pledge, which, really, in and of itself is kind of a relic, should be reviewed. And establishing a state-okay'd religion, in this case a Monotheistic, but unnamed, one, is a breach of teh Constitution.
Ideally, any useage of a diety or religion should be removed from government work. Swearing on the Bible for court? Holdover from Puritanical days. Not very effective in a world filled with agnostics, atheists, and non-Christians, I'd think. As for the logo on money, it's also easily fixed.
In short, religion, or anti-religion in some cases, is a personal calling and personal belief. There's no reason to project it on others, and, more importantly, it should never be entwined with operation of a secular institution, like government. Clearing the slate would, ultimately, be a positive, despite the work of 'Wrongheaded goobers' like the 9th court.
Me? Hey, I'm in the South. The *Deep* South. I have Baptists all over, shakers, quakers, some Mormons, one of teh largest collections of Bhuddist temples in the world, and snake-handlers, all in about a half hour drive. But I've never in my adult life seen anyone of teh Jewish faith, nor met a Catholic. Go fig! To each their own's my call.
SO, there ya go. My view? Take all religious imagery and iconagraphy off government dohickies, then move on. Clean slates are good slates.
-- Old Dog, stepping a paw in it.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 21:32 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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Hey Old Dog, you may not have met a Catholic in real life but you have talked to one on hear several time...and yes every sperm is scared.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 21:57 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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Well done old dog, you summed up my views perfectly! I might even forgive you for the Walco story you wrote 
Onto Karagin, what was the point of the last statement?????? It completely went over my head.
Raven, confused!
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2104
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| Posted: 27-Jun-2002 22:11 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-06-27 21:18, Old Dog wrote:
Me? Hey, I'm in the South. The *Deep* South. I have Baptists all over, shakers, quakers, some Mormons, one of teh largest collections of Bhuddist temples in the world, and snake-handlers, all in about a half hour drive. But I've never in my adult life seen anyone of teh Jewish faith, nor met a Catholic. Go fig! To each their own's my call.
SO, there ya go. My view? Take all religious imagery and iconagraphy off government dohickies, then move on. Clean slates are good slates.
-- Old Dog, stepping a paw in it.
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I worked for a Jew at one time (right up until a few months before he died), was/am friends with two of them (one from kindergarten on up through senior year and the other throughout high school and into college...went to each girl's Bar Mitzfahs {sp?}...danced with each at the senior prom, etc....they have a temple or two here in town...
Also had a Catholic in the class...cool fellow when he wanted to be...and roomed with another in college for two years, and still talk to him often on the phone and in email...
Had a Muslim in my office on campus...and went to school with many more, and even some Buddhists or some other more "Eastern" religions I believe...
Had Mormons preaching door to door (of course)...
Had an athiest for a friend in college...
edit: Had some other friends that practiced semi-druidic or semi-witchcraft beliefs in college...
And all sorts of Protestants call my town home, of course...
To all this I say this...and no, I haven't read all of this thread...only picked out some names to read posts from...I don't force my views on anyone, if I can help it...why should an athiest force his on me?
And a belief that there is no god is still just as much a belief as mine that there is...no matter what that shmuck says...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-06-27 22:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-06-27 22:31 ]
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2002 00:06 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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You`ve probably all heard that stupid Beatles song where they sing "nothing to kill or die for", haven`t you? I can`t for the life of me understand why they thought that would be a perfect world. What`s there
to really live for if there`s nothing you`d kill or die for?
That said, I still think a difference of religion is a very stupid thing to kill or die for. It`s even worse if you didn`t come up with the idea yourself, but got talked into it by some rabble-rousing priest, imam, preacher or whatever they might be called. And unfortunately, while the religions I`ve heard about usually promote peace etc they are all too often used as an excuse for war against the infidels.
BTW: I think political systems like Nazism and Communism are actually the ultimate form of Church-State. You must believe in the Leader, the Party and the Manifest Destiny of those two. What`s that except a twisted religion?
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Ronin
ComStar
Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 908
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2002 01:53 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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On 2002-06-27 13:47, Warmonger wrote:
And Ronin, one thing. If, and that's a BIG if, we removed all references to god from our government, why would we need to remove any references to God from our history books. This reasons behind our past actions and accomplishments would not change, even if we later discovered that the reasons were 'wrong', or whatever. The actions were still taken, and they still had their effects, regardless of the why's involved.
Thank you.
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My reasoning is this: This suit was brought because the person was offended by the mention of "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance that was recited at his daughter's school. He claimed that this ammounted to the government sponsoring a religion. So by extension of this logic, all references to religion must be removed from all public schools, as any mention might unduly influence a student into thinking that the government supported the religion being refered to. How shocking it must be for these students to find out that the Founding Fathers believed that the United States was ordained by God, that the westward expansion was "Manifest Destiny", etc. etc.
In other words, I exagerated to make a point. As chihawk said, nowhere is it written that we have a right to not be offended. This one person is trying to push his beliefs on everyone. This is tyranny of the minority, plain and simple.
I have no problem with academic discussion of religions in schools, public or private, so long as it is as factual and neutral as possible. This allows the students to learn that their are viewpoints in the world other than their own, and to learn what possibly motivates another person to think, believe, and act as they do. I am from what in this area is definately a minority religion, and on a number of occasions have had to speak out against basic factual errors found in some textbooks. The vast majority of the time, the person in charge, whether they were a teacher, professor, or whatever, were professional enough to allow the factual corrections to stand, and allowed discussion on the topic to occur so long as it remained civil. We all learned from each other. I doubt anyone changed their relgious beliefs (or lack thereof) as a result of these discussions, but that wasn't the point. We learned that there really were people that believed in ways different from each other, and that there was nothing wrong with that.
Ronin
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jun-2002 02:27 Post subject: OT: 9th Fedeal Court rules Under God part of the Pledge... |
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My turn to weigh in. First a couple of side topics:
Raven, I think Karagins last line is a reference to a B grade Monty Python film called something like "The Meaning of Life."
Nightmare, communism in Soviet Russia is the ultimate in separation of church and state. The denial of relgion is not the same thing as the adoption of a religion; although the final solution, telling people what to believe, is similar.
Nazism did persecute the Christian church, but they were all about integrating church and state (and making sure the church obeyed the state).
Like it or not the Constitution only limits the government from establishing a national religion. That does not mean they have to bar every reference to religion the government may have. Saying the phrase "under God" is just a much an acknowledgement of our countries history and values as it is a religious statement. Face it, the original documents drafted by the continental congress for the foundation of the country includes references to God. And to think that we can not legally do that now is absurd.
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Gangrene
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