| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2763
Location: United States
|
 Posted: 08-Mar-2025 18:17 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
  |
|
| mekkatgirls wrote: | | who wants to play smartly when table top glory awaits? |
Oh gosh.
Actual mission I set up:
Secure a defunct refinery so that technicians could come in and see if it was worth restarting.
The party was an Enforcer, a Commando, a Firestarter, and one other mech (another Commando?), all customized.
By all appearances, the only defender was a lone Cataphract. The party had an AC/5, two LRM 5s, and some other longer-ranged weapons between them. If they played it smart, they could have done a death by papercut.
Three of the four players weren't smart.
The Cataphract was actually operating *in support of* anti-mech infantry that had SRM launchers. The Firestarter pilot was smart enough to stay back because he realized the whole thing was likely a trap, but everyone else rushed in. The Firestarter pilot had to save everyone.
Yeah, they captured the Cataphract, but at the cost of one of the Commandos, heavy damage to the Enforcer and second Commando, and the Firestarter pilot using up almost all of his LRMs. This put them in a very poor defensive position ahead of having to actually defend the place.
I could see that group of people trying to rush an AC/2 emplacement.
_________________
"I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat." -Edgar Allen Poe"I knew there was something special about you, but I never realized you were really a cat." Wolfwood to a random cat (Trigun)
|
|
| Back to top |
  
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8102
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 08-Mar-2025 19:41 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| Kraken wrote: | | chihawk wrote: | You don't have enough time to make a post that could convince anyone who's played the game for a long time that any version of the AC2 is good.  |
Back when the variant munition types were popular, I came up with a few light, fast AC/2 - armed conventional vehicles that could find a spot and snipe.
That was their entire mission, drop those variant munitions - especially the armor-piercing AC ammo - onto targets from long range, staying put to minimize their to-hit from moving but then fleeing for their lives once the enemy units closed within a certain distance.
I think the pinnacle of my designs was a VTOL with an AC/2 on it, giving it the speed to rapidly run *and* the +3 to-hit modifier that any ground-based unit would have faced when trying to shoot it down. |
AP ammo is an additional +1 to hit, and for an AC2 you'd only get a crit on a roll of a 12. Oh, yeah, and you only get half as many shots. So, good luck with that.
And I've read your posts for years, more than long enough to know that with the tactics you use, even if I were only half paying attention, I'd crush your units like mashed potatoes.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
 
|
Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5887
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 08-Mar-2025 23:52 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| chihawk wrote: | | Oh, yeah, and you only get half as many shots. So, good luck with that. |
So 22 shots instead of 45? Not exactly a game breaking loss in ammo count. Maybe in a campaign.
Also, a head hit is a roll of a 12 too. Yet they happen. Not saying it'll swing a game often, but it does give the plink gun some ability to sway a game in addition to a TAC or HD hit.
I'd say its better to use precision ammo in a field gun.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8102
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 09-Mar-2025 07:25 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
If your entire plan is rolling a 12, you've failed.
It's a trash weapon. It was a trash weapon in 3025, and it's a trash weapon now. Coming up with niche uses doesn't change that fact.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2421
|
| Posted: 09-Mar-2025 08:02 Post subject: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
Definitely not the best weapon, but if you have a very good gunner (good enough that you can do things like aim high at long range and reliably hit), and can keep the range open, you can conceivably take out a pilot without actually taking out the ‘Mech itself.
Or, case in point, just the head of a ‘Mech:
Yes, this happened decades ago in a game I played in. Yes, it was just the once. But it makes a story that had lived on ever since.
3 x UAC/2 hits to the cockpit, a 5 pack of LRM’s, all to the head, all in one round, all at over 20 hexes range, and the Annihilator that just appeared on the board went from “hero to zero” instantly.
It’s one of the reasons so many people love the original Vulcan and the original Blackjack.
Of course, the chances of that happening again are astronomical. About like a Spider decapitating a Wolverine in one round with a medium laser and two punches to the head.
Did that too. Once.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 6160
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 09-Mar-2025 11:05 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| chihawk wrote: | | And I've read your posts for years, more than long enough to know that with the tactics you use, even if I were only half paying attention, I'd crush your units like mashed potatoes. |
SHOTS FIRED!!! 
_________________
Mordel Blacknight - Site Administrator
|
|
| Back to top |
 
|
Captain_Frosty
ComStar
Private, First Class
Joined: 22-Nov-2024 02:18
Posts: 45
Location: Greece
|
| Posted: 16-Apr-2025 06:07 Post subject: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
Late to the party but my honest opinion is that *any* AC on a 'mech is just a waste of space.
The AC2 is literally pointless and outmatched by an LRM5.
The AC5 is just an inferior light PPC; it can take custom ammo but the opportunity to waste even more space in order to make it effective does not change the fact that you can get a second light PPC and the heatsinks for it for the same space.
The AC10, similarly, is just a worse PPC. Get an ER PPC and it the difference becomes ridiculous.
Finally, the AC20 is both situational and so ridiculously heavy that it's honestly far better to get a pair of Streak SRM 6s with ammo and do your job that way.
But there's the catch; all this is true on a 'mech.
I like to play BT as the full combined arms experience and when you do so, the situation changes significantly.
First of all, the unsung heroes, the infantry. Having infantry (usually mechanized) with AC2 field guns is unironically hilarious and actually optimal.
The AC2 is the only field gun that can be taken up to 4 times in a full platoon and has such a long range that you never have to worry about your infantrymen being targeted by Anti-Personnel weaponry (with only one or two specialized exceptions that nobody picks).
Paired with the inherently low BV cost of infantry, you can bring in 3 platoons and force the enemy to hide behind cover or risk 12 chances at a critical hit every turn. Not to mention a constant stream of supporting fire for your own team.
Enemy has VTOLs? 12 AC2s. Enemy brings in aircraft? 12 AC2s. Enemy brings in a specialized counter to your annoying-ass infantry? Congrats, you've force said enemy to spend precious BV for weapons against a single unit type whereas your AC2s can engage any unit type! It's great!
ACs are also quite useful for cheap ICE fodder vehicles. Like Kraken said, VTOLs with AC2s can be quite annoying to deal with. Given a few different ammo types, they can be a genuine menace. Same for cheap-o tanks, though at that point you're just getting an inferior version of the infantry idea.
Either way, the basic AC2 is not a good weapon; it is a cheap weapon. Both in the sense that it's low BV but also in the sense that the unit carrying it can stay out of danger while still providing fire support, thus saving you the trouble of losing said unit and having to continue without it.
Granted, you could say the same for the LRM5 in every sense but between cluster tables, spotting penalties, AMS and higher BV for special ammo (iirc), it's actually not worth it despite weighing significantly less.
I will note that I am not some Battletech Savant; I'm 99% sure that Mordel and co. would kick my ass on the field no matter what tactics I use but for what it's worth, this ideology has worked for me thus far.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8102
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 17-Apr-2025 16:36 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| Captain_Frosty wrote: |
Finally, the AC20 is both situational and so ridiculously heavy that it's honestly far better to get a pair of Streak SRM 6s with ammo and do your job that way.
|
The AC20 is a "high pucker factor" weapon. I've seen more than a handful of lance/company battles won by a 'Mech simply by having one. Sure, it has some downsides, but I'll gladly take one over two streak-6s any day.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 6160
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 18-Apr-2025 08:27 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| chihawk wrote: |
The AC20 is a "high pucker factor" weapon. I've seen more than a handful of lance/company battles won by a 'Mech simply by having one. Sure, it has some downsides, but I'll gladly take one over two streak-6s any day. |
What if it had only one ton of ammo?
_________________
Mordel Blacknight - Site Administrator
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8102
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 18-Apr-2025 08:34 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
It would depend on the other mechs in the lance/company...but people run from AC20s, I've never seen anyone run from streak 6s.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 6160
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 18-Apr-2025 11:35 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| chihawk wrote: | | It would depend on the other mechs in the lance/company...but people run from AC20s, I've never seen anyone run from streak 6s. |
Somewhat true. I do seem to remember a lot of people running from a Mech equipped with 30+(?) SRM-2s one TotalCon!
_________________
Mordel Blacknight - Site Administrator
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8102
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 18-Apr-2025 14:09 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
Those were Streak-2s, and it was Casey's 'Mech...I don't remember how many he had, but he was well into his fourth or fifth ton of ammo when we ended the game.
That many of any light-weight weapon can be an issue, especially in the hands of one of the best players to play the game.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Thunder
Clan Blood Spirit
Star Colonel
Joined: 22-Feb-2024 01:39
Posts: 393
|
| Posted: 19-Apr-2025 09:43 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| Sounds like an Insano. Mostly wondering if the mech was an Insano, or just in the same category.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8102
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 19-Apr-2025 10:45 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
It was a home-made 'Mech created specifically for a convention event.
_________________
www.210sportsblog.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Captain_Frosty
ComStar
Private, First Class
Joined: 22-Nov-2024 02:18
Posts: 45
Location: Greece
|
| Posted: 22-Apr-2025 04:01 Post subject: Re: Greetings and AC/2 question |
|
|
| chihawk wrote: | | Captain_Frosty wrote: |
Finally, the AC20 is both situational and so ridiculously heavy that it's honestly far better to get a pair of Streak SRM 6s with ammo and do your job that way.
|
The AC20 is a "high pucker factor" weapon. I've seen more than a handful of lance/company battles won by a 'Mech simply by having one. Sure, it has some downsides, but I'll gladly take one over two streak-6s any day. |
That, I will not deny. The AC20, when used right, can completely turn a fight on its head. It's basically a 'clutch or die' weapon and that's entirely because it deals all 20 points of damage on a single spot, which is admittedly the weapon's whole point.
That said, I find that unless the entire 'mech is built around the AC20, like the Hunchback (my beloved), it isn't really that viable... or you've just brought an Atlas or similar 100-ton superheavy and mobility is just something that other people worry about. 
Still, to get at least somewhat back on topic, I genuinely believe that the AC2 is peak field gun and even chaff unit material to an extent, thanks to its ability to keep the wielder (mostly) out of harms way.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
