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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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 Posted: 16-Apr-2006 07:05 Post subject: Standard AC calibers? |
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It's a little confusing to see such a wide variety of ACs used on CBT battlefield, but some sources say that IS forces and clans use standardized ammo calibers. Some states may have different sizes of ammo in use. I think that House Kurita used different ammo in succession wars to prevent Davion forces from using their materiel against them, which later backfired when DC forces were cut off from their supplies by over stretching their logistic traces and the same problem was encountered by the clans only a few years later.
What is the current situation on this field of technology?
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Apr-2006 07:38 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Regardless of the variations, the game mechanics still treats all ACs the same.
The Federated Suns now has several munition types that can only be used in standard ACs, and they're also playing around with Rotary Autocannons.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 16-Apr-2006 08:14 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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To be honest, there is no such thing as a standard AC caliber in BTech...you can have a 120mm cannon be both a AC-5 (Marauder-3R as described in Decision at Thunder Rift), an AC-10 or even an AC-20 (Loren Coleman uses the 120mm cannon description for most of his AC-20's)...and the same applies to the rest...the primary deciding factor on what type of overall autocannon it is would be how many shells it fires in a volley...
Loren Coleman tends to use fixed calibers for his weapons...IIRC, AC-2s are 30mm cannon, AC-5's are 50 (60?) mm cannon, AC-10s are 90mm cannon, and AC-20s are 120mm cannon...
But other sources use different calibers for the same weapon...In TRO 3026, you'll find an AC-20 alternately as an 150mm cannon (Hetzer) firing in ten shell bursts, and an 85mm cannon firing in hundred round bursts (Mechbuster fighter)...In Decision at Thunder Rift, you'll find AC-5's to be 85mm cannon (IIRC) firing 6 or so shells a shot on the Wolverine, or 120mm cannon firing 3 shells per shot on the Marauder...
Others like to say that all the cannon have the same caliber shell, and the only difference between them is how many shells they fire per shot...an AC-2 fires 2, an AC-5 fires 5,, an AC-10 fires 10 and an AC-20 fires 20...
And that's without factoring in alternate AC types (LB, Ultra, Rotary, Light)...
In the end, it comes down to the needs for your campaign...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2006-04-16 08:16 ]
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2006 13:01 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Yes, but it looks a little strange. After all these years of warfare there is such a mess. I would like to know if it wasn't better for both clan and IS manufacturers to use standard calibers (at least in each of the successor states and probably within all cans) because it would ease the stress on transports.
What do you think about this?
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2006 13:20 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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I guess a lot of it comes down to how you view AC's in general. I personally dont see them as machine guns, or giant machine guns (regardless of what is cannon or not), I have personally always seen them as field artillery with smaller ammo hence the shorter range.
quick example
Ac2 = Modern day AA cannon
Ac5 = A german 88 (or modern day equilivent)
Ac10 = Tank cannon (Abrahms tank cannon)
Ac20 = Battleship cannon (16in cannon firing 1 shell at a time)
Why? (I know you are asking this) Simply because the damage from a machine gun dosent make any sence, if it was a giant machine gun then it should get a negative to hit (which only the lbx does) and you should be rolling on the lrm chart to see how many hit. We should ALSO have to roll for locations (much like LRM's), Now before everyone replies with well this is BTech physics not real world, That is fine but with thier description that is how damage should be handeled, (and I am not going to bring in the novel logic as that would only confuse things even more, how many times have you read about a warrior "walking" his AC fire up the leg and across the torso of a mech.)
But if you use a standard size for all ac's then you can do the same with the ammo. And for ease of game play I would 
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If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2006 22:12 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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I've always figured that for plot purposes, they could be either standard calibur or not. "Gee, sorry guys, but the Centurion's AC is the wrong calibur. See, it shoots lots of small bullets while your's is the giant slug..."
And not to rain on a parade, but even the smallest ACs have to be bigger than the 120mm on the Abrams or the 150mm on the Crusader, since we know from the history that the biggest tank gun shells available when Mechs debuted didn't even dent the paint jobs, while Mech ACs shredded tank armor like it was paper.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 02:47 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Goose just locked a thread on the same subject over on HMP because it was getting out of hand.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 02:54 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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it is one that does. People have their fantasies and hate being told those images and beliefs are wrong in any way. makes something this big and inconsistent a problem.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 12:10 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Agreed.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 12:30 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-04-17 22:12, SaberDance wrote:
And not to rain on a parade, but even the smallest ACs have to be bigger than the 120mm on the Abrams or the 150mm on the Crusader, since we know from the history that the biggest tank gun shells available when Mechs debuted didn't even dent the paint jobs, while Mech ACs shredded tank armor like it was paper.
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Oh boy, this is going to open up a huge can o Worms.
Quote:
| since we know from the history that the biggest tank gun shells available when Mechs debuted didn't even dent the paint jobs |
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Sorry I don't remember anything being said about new cannons coming out when the mechs debuted. So there for they had to be using the same cannons. Second the only real way that scenario would happen is if they introduced new armor for the mechs which at that point someone with a budgeting brain would have said. "Hey lets just cover our tanks with this new armor and become unstoppable, I mean they cost a fraction of what we spent on R&D to make this mech, as we are very comfortable with the vehicle tech, and that armor is proving to be unbreachable by anything we send at it".
And on page 124 of the BattleTech master rules. It says.
Quote:
| An auto cannon is a rapid-fire auto-loading weapon that fires high speed streams of high explosive, armor piercing shells
Light auto cannons range in caliber from 30 to 90MM, and heavy auto cannons may be 80 to 120MM. |
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so there is a basis for what the cannons sizes are. And they are the same size as the old shells that were being fired from the tanks back when mechs came around.
BUT, This is also a Sci-fi world were many people use their own vision of what the weapon acts like. Cannon or not. How many people here have stopped the universe when the clans came out? How many wont buy a dark age product? So yes the universe has cannon info in it. BUT there is some info (like Ac's) that can be altered to suite what you see it as. Me I personally see Ac's as converted field artillery, as I have yet to be able to "walk my Ac fire up a leg and over a torso of an opposing mech". Which is how Ac's should be ruled if they shoot streams.
So Now back on topic.
AC2 = 30 to 45mm shells.
AC5 = 45 to 90mm shells.
AC10 = 80 to 100mm shells.
AC20 = 100 to 120mm shells.
This is what the Master rule book says I have just expanded it a bit more.
[ This Message was edited by: Stinger on 2006-04-18 12:32 ]
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1470
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 13:20 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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I´ve some takeouts of the TRO´s regarding calibers! Some of them contradict each other so i think that the classification of "AC/2" or "AC/10" is based on its effect on the target! So if it does "10 points of damage" it is an AC/10 whatever the caliber or the rate of fire (One big shell or a stream of smaller ones)!
Typ/Cal./Burst (1 "shot")/ Units
AC/2 / 30mm/10/Warrior VTOL
AC/10/ ?mm/1/Hatchetman
AC/20/ 200 ?mm/?/ Saladin Hv
AC/20/150mm/10/ Hetzer Whl
AC/20/ 185mm/ ?/ Demolisher Trk
AC/20/ ? mm/ 4 / Mechbuster
LB10-X Clan / 75mm/1/Ishtar Whl
LB10-X Clan /150mm/?/Mars Trk
UAC/02 Clan/ 50mm/1/Mithras Trk
UAC/10 Clan / 75mm/1/Ku Whl,Ishtar Whl
[ This Message was edited by: Rudel Gurken on 2006-04-18 13:25 ]
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 15:11 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Actually I didn't want to start the debate about burst/single shot debate again (well it happened ..  ). I just wonder if it wasn't better to have the same calibers of guns than current hoard of various sizes of guns that largely do the same thing. Development is one thing, but why there are so many gun types?
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2006 15:25 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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Eh. these kinds of questions always get off track.
Since there is a borad ranger of sizes I would say give each house there own size and amke it so they arent compatible with each other.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Steel-Scorpion
Steel Scorpion Mercs.
Mercenary General
Joined: 17-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 217
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Apr-2006 20:02 Post subject: RE: Standard AC calibers? |
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In my games, i standardize the AC size for each house.
++++AC-2's:++++
~Fed.Com.- Caliber rounds. (2 Cal.); inexpensive rounds, common propellants.
~Draconis Combine- Decimal Millimeter Rounds. (31.7mm); Shaped rounds, unique sizes and uncommon propellants.
~Lyran Allign.- Sandard Millimeter Rounds (40mm); Big cheap rounds, but cheap propellants too. *gunpowder instead of NitroCellulose*
~Clans- Primarily Millimeter with advanced Munitions Metals and Advanced Propellants. Lighter and smaller guns. *Lightweight alloy rounds, with C-4 like propellants*
and so on...
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