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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 23-Aug-2009 21:13 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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Okay, you are a mechwarrior, you know how to pilot your mech and at the most drive a car of some kind, maybe even a motorcycle of some time.
Now what I am driving at here is, how hard (skill checks and such) is it going to be for you to jump out of your mech and take over driving a tank?
I am asking this because I got asked about it. I shared my thoughts, and the person wasn't happy with the answer I gave. I said it was unlikely that the mechwarrior would be able to much beyond driving in a semi-straight line, forget combat or anything out of the ordinary. As for manning the guns on the tank as a gunner, again I went with he would unlike be able to be as good as he is in a mech.
Now I figured out that the guy asking want to here that the mechwarrior could be multi-tasking and not pay major modifiers and such, but I just don't see it happening without a lot of things not working in his favor.
So what you guys feel about this? Should the mechwarrior be able to jump from his mech to another fighting unit (aka tank, APC, battlearmor, aerofighter) and still be as proficient as he was in his mech?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Aug-2009 10:29 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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It's been repeatedly stated in the assorted canon material that piloting a mech involves the use of a neurohelmet to keep the mech upright, make it move, and in some instances even operate the weapons. It's therefore little removed from operating battle armor.
OTOH, working a ground vehicle requires a lot of sweat. Drivers have to be able to keep their vehicle going, loaders have to hump rounds of all sorts, gunners need to be able to aim using whatever limited targeting gear is available to them, and any other crew members have their own tasks to do.
Unless a mech jock is also trained to operate a vehicle, they might fumble their way through a single task if pressed but that's about it.
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"I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat." -Edgar Allen Poe"I knew there was something special about you, but I never realized you were really a cat." Wolfwood to a random cat (Trigun)
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Aug-2009 13:32 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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I aggree with you Karagin. Driving a tank is different. Period.
I can ride a bike, but it doesn't mean that I can ride a motocycle without previous training. Can I drive a tank if I can drive a car? Don't be ridiculous. Aerospace fighters and 'mechs both have cockpits and nobody would think that both can be piloted once you've mastered just one. Sure the consequences of doing something wrong while driving a tank on the open ground or flying a fighter are of widely different scale, but it doesn't mean that you can easily drive something untrained. Just the skill might be easier to learn than the other.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Aug-2009 15:10 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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well, honestly this question fully depends upon the style and type of game that you are running. if your running a realistic or near realistic game then a mechwarrior would not be able to efficiently operate other vehicles without first receiving some basic instructions; sure several of the systems might appear similar to those on a mech during this period [veh that use mech targeting gear] but it is still different enough to require some hands on first. Luckly, vehicles by 3025 are automated enough that he will not need to learn how to load the weapons.
however, if the game is meant to place the players in the heroic role then as heroes they should be capable of doing more then any human should truely be able to. Think Star Wars or James Bond, impossible diversity of skill but when compared to the normals are clearly far more capable.
So really, it depends on yours game style.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 25-Aug-2009 12:26 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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James bond IS actually trained for everything and Star Wars have the all-guiding force, with which the heroes are usually fine-tuned, or direct computer up-links conveniently placed at every corner away from sight (and all the shooting) for droids. Bad choice of samples V 
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Aug-2009 17:10 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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Not really. It is literally impossible for someone to be a marksman pistoleer, ace driver/pilot, master infiltrator, and everything else Bond is so very good at at once. It takes focus and time and practice to get that good at anything. And that practice wears off slowly if you stop training.
Same with most Star Wars heros. Chewy and Han did not have active contact with the force. however, the wear great shots, pilots, and mechanics [at least chewy].
My point is that in real life, in order to be good at something you gotta train and practice at it. Heroes do not require this time and training. They often become good and many things at once and quickly.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2009 01:34 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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Well, Bond is just that, because he's either training, or using his skills on a mission... ever wondered why he never had any real relationship, or why he's after any girl around? 
From the game aspect of the thing... has anyone here senn James' character sheet? Perhaps he has the ranks in all the skills and has some perk that allows him some easy way around the untrained ones.
If I understand the SW force mythology correctly, then the heroes are favored by the force, whether they believe in it or not. The force is in all living things, guiding them and being manipulated to certain extent by a few chosen individuals. Han might not be particularly force sensitive, but his luck could simply be the way the force manifests in him.
If I recall Han's character stats from SW d20 (Saga Edition), then he was already lvl12 or something like that with quite a few levels in skill heavy Scoundrel class and expert gunman prestige class. I can present more accurate info when I get back home.
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2009 11:33 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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IIRC, Bond was taken in as a child when his parents were killed in an accident, leaving him an orphan. In his case, it's possible that MI had been training him since childhood to be an operative; this would have given him an extra 10 years or so to learn the trade and a whole host of related skills.
Likewise, real-life sniper Carlos Hathcock was such a good shot in part because he began shooting as a child; his parents separated when he was young, and so he had to hunt small game in order to help his mother and grandmother put food on the table.
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"I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat." -Edgar Allen Poe"I knew there was something special about you, but I never realized you were really a cat." Wolfwood to a random cat (Trigun)
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2009 13:47 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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I think we can all agree that there are exceptions to the rule, but your average character isn't going to have the skills to drive a tank or fight with it as they would in their mech.
Yes he can learn the skills needed, but going from mech to tank with no training isn't going to work very well. Or anything unit in the game's universe. I am sorry but while the systems in battlearmor might be similar to a mechs', they are not the same, there will be issues and most likely the mechwarrior will end up either dead, or hurting himself or someone else.
Have a skill that you learn from childhood forward doesn't mean you can pick up something you have never used before and instantly use it as an expert.
Example, yes I have fired an assault rifle, most are simple to use, yet if I don't take the time to sight the weapon in and spend the time on the range firing it to make sure I can hit some with it, then the weapon is no good to me and blind dumb luck will be the only way I hit a target. Pray and spray only works with machine guns.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Aug-2009 14:53 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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I think that certain units, Grey Death for example, encouraged cross training with all parts of the military force, so their 'mechwarriors were also able to act as veteran infantry or tankers, but once again, it was becust they went through the drills with the other parts of the unit together, not just bcause they were exceptionally gifted for anything.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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| Posted: 27-Aug-2009 18:45 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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the RPG already has the rules for this situation though. If the player does not have the skill they can make an untrained skill check, and if i recall that means rolling 3 dice and take worst 2. So your player can complain all he wants and you can just point to the rules and be done with it.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2009 19:02 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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Another option you can use is the one I do for plain BattleTech. If you've never been trained at it (because if you had, you'd have a skill value for it) then you take a 50% penalty to your similar stat. For instance if you have a 3/3 MechWarrior (G/P), then you'd be a 5/5 tanker (G/D). Why 5/5? Because I always round up. Or at least I used to. On more thinking, it seems to me that targeting systems would be a lot more similar than movement controls, so I would round down for Gunnery and up for Piloting-Driving. Just my 2 cents.
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Blighted Sun Battalion
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2009 15:05 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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Actually certain things shouldn't work. 'Mechs are said to require not only special training, but also being somehow gifted with sense for balance... The same would apply for aerospace fighters IMO. You can drive a car, you can drive a tank (aehm - make it move), but I seriously doubt that they could just make a 'mech go to battle. Walking, yeah, but gettng hit and avoiding. Standing up? Probably not. The tank dosn't have this type of problems. And flying? Even less likely that people would make the fighter take off. Perhaps they could make it fly stright or crash land, but without assisstance the rest could be pure miracle work.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2009 14:55 Post subject: Re: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Actually certain things shouldn't work. 'Mechs are said to require not only special training, but also being somehow gifted with sense for balance... The same would apply for aerospace fighters IMO. You can drive a car, you can drive a tank (aehm - make it move), but I seriously doubt that they could just make a 'mech go to battle. Walking, yeah, but gettng hit and avoiding. Standing up? Probably not. The tank dosn't have this type of problems. And flying? Even less likely that people would make the fighter take off. Perhaps they could make it fly stright or crash land, but without assisstance the rest could be pure miracle work. |
I agree with that. Using my aforementioned method I also throw in a dash of common sense. Driving a tank isn't actually all that hard, except in certain terrain like marches, bogs, rice patties, etc...
The easiest job (per actual tank crewmen from WW II & Vietnam that I've talked to) is that of loader. Even with multiple munitions.
But think about it, anyone can jump into a bobcat (irl) and learn to drive it in moments. The systems of a tank are a bit more advanced, but I think basic driving skills (less the above mentioned terrain skills) would be able to be trained in a few hours at most.
So take it as you see it.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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PlaywithLAMs
Capellan Confederation
Si-ben-bing
Joined: 08-Mar-2010 14:01
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Mar-2010 19:52 Post subject: Cross-leveling of Skills for Mechwarriors |
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| A 'MechWarrior that is good at 'Mech gunnery should be equally good at other unit gunnery (just simply use the sensors to find the target(s) and line up the crosshairs on it/them. As for driving/piloting other units (like ground vehicles, aerounits, etc.) I'd say he/she would have to spend some time getting used to such driving/piloting.
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