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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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 Posted: 31-May-2002 18:37 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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now that I
Well, I agree with Old Dog that some übermercs units are munch and should be trimmed at the very least.
The Kell Hounds, the Eridani Light Horse, the Gray Death Legion, the Northwind Highlanders and of course Wolf's Dragoons.
What's the problem with them? Size? Not, the Big Mac is six regiments but it doesn't have the munch factor of the others.
The problem is that a unit with their own planet, 'Mech factory and Warship fleet is WAY too munch. And munch encourages imitation, a feeling that a small unit cannot be cool because the greatest mercs are of great siez.
The main problem is that those units are used up, trite. You just cannot go on and on writing more stories about them. It's time for new units to take their place, with new stories and heroes.
How we fix this? Well, as much as some of us would want to destroy them and get over with it, there are a lot of fans out there. we cannot do that. so we have to retire them from the spotlight, but leave them as a setting feature.
Now let me think
Kell Hounds, either merge with Clan Wolf or become house troops.
Eridani, join the SDLF, this is no longer a problem, it was already almost a House unit.
MacCarron's Armored Cavalry, taken care of already, House unit.
Wich leaves us with the Northwind Highlanders and the Dragoons. What to do with them? The Highlanders ain't that bad, but the Dragoons must go. They are more than a private army. they are practically a House on their own.
This state of things can't continue, they are a destabilizing factor,no healthily paranoid Liao, Davion, or even Kurita strategist would sleep well with such a concentration of force that is unpredictable. Five regiments, Warships, a 'Mech factory, a percentage of all the income of the merc trade... in short, Wolfs Dragoons are Microsoft Corporation.
Furthermore, they are a bit schyzophrenic. They were mercs are now are more like a corporation, and they are just pretending to be a clan, what with all that Honorame nonsense and the breeding of sibkos. It's just me or isn't that very disturbing? I mean, didn't the IS just fought a war against the Clan invaders, and now we found that we have the viper on our nest? Would the people of the Federated Suns approve the idea of having a Clan at their doorstep. Me thinks not.
What happens when the old man (Wolf) dies?
Wolf Pack showed that the days of the Dragoons are numbered. Or they will start their decadence and become fat merchants, or will fight among themselves, or will be wiped out by a power that is fearful of them. That's what the historical precedents indicate.
Either way, they are lost. I do not approve of Old Dog idea, the revenge of Waco with nukes... just a botch up, can be done better and more subtly.
I could see Word of Blake trying to kill the Dragoons, though.
Having exposed the problem, I'll write my idea in a follow up post.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-May-2002 20:01 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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The Wolves re over the top, with their omnimech factories and breeding facilities. But I do think destroying them altogether is a bit much. Perhaps the best option is for them to lose a lot of power and assets due to the civil war, and as a result ditch their military side in favor of becoming a coporation of some sort.
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Talen
Capellan Confederation
Sang-shao
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1269
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-May-2002 20:28 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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I think that if they lost a lot during the war that they could become a sort of Tem Agency for smaller Merc units. Secure contracts, offer training and just run stuff like that. I would be happy with that solution myself.
But then again, i dont think that the Dragoons being so big is a problem. Though it may be munchy, its kind of interesting. I just like how it changes the basic power struggle in general....the more people capable of dealing damage, the more interesting plot holes you can have. Maybe if Jaime dies off, the person that takes command is corrupt...
But I agree, Warships and Onimech factories are pushing it...
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 05:08 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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I forgot one thing, aside from being almost a Clan in the midst of the Inner Sphere, the Dragoons have their own hidden agenda, and their intelligence service Wolfnet is another destabilizing factor.
The problem is that the Dragoons are turncoats, traitors to the Clans, and once they have outlived their usefulness, they become a problem. Their help was welcome when the IS had to fend off the Clans, but the aims of the Sphere and WD's differ. Many in the IS would like the Clans destroyed, or at least kicked back to their homeworlds. The WD's on the other hand would not approve of that, and considered sabotaging Explorer Corps search for the Clan homeworlds.
It's just that the internal contradictions of the WD's will doom them. They cannot keep navigating between two waters. Either they are absorbed by the Inner Sphere, or they go back to the Clans.
It would be very naive to think the IS trust the Dragoon's at face value, specially now that the inmediate Clan threat has diminished somewhat. If the truth about their spying and their breeding program became known, pressure would mount to get rid of them, either by destroying or expelling them.
Also, Wolf's pathetic attempts to maintain cohesion by recreating a parody of Clan life only show that the Dragoon's are sliding down to pure and simple mercenaries motivated by profit, content on milking the merc trade, selling arms, and ultimately, becoming a mere corporation because it's more lucrative than hiring out their regiments.
And from a personal point of view, I dislike the whole Outreach concept. I think they went overboard trying to create a "Solaris VII for mercs". It's just too regulated, too predictable, what's next, health care and retirement plans for mercs? sheesh...
The mercenary trade should be more risky and uncertain than that, it's a dangerous and ill-paid job. From experience with rpgs, it detracts from the gaming experience having a big mama organization you can resort to if you run into trouble. Outreach in its present form must go. Mercenaries should be walking the rope without safety net. and another things that is completely munchy is the whole "college for mercs" idea. No way, brother, if a character wants to have proper military training, he has to serve with a House.
Also, I find annoying as hell I have to go to Outreach everytime I want to negotiate a contract, having to advertise there, and to pay taxes to the Dragoons on every contract. And from a character viewpoint, I find their
arrogance insufferable, a sentiment that would be shared my most mercs that would chafe under the rules and regulations of the WD. The Black Thorns novels showed what happens when you act like an upstart to them. And personally, no dirty Clan scumbag is going to have the nerve to lecture me on "honorable" conduct and "professionalism".
The mercernary bussiness should be risky, uncertain, and dangerous, and realistically, most mercs lean to the "cutthroats for hire" than the "just another service bussiness" image the FM: Mercenaries tends to.
Moreover the problem with large, ultraelite übermercs units like the Dragoons and the others mentioned, is that they make the players character unit seem insignificant by comparison, I believe munch units with their own production factories are largely a result of a inferiority complex. I feel the focus has to be put in smaller units, regiments, battallions and companies.
A large unit like the Eridani, the Highlanders or the MAC can be justified if they are part of the setting, that is, they are mostly a House unit. But nobody can compete with the WD in the mer business. They are so large and much that they overshadow all others. I think it would be far more interesting having stories about Hansen's Roughriders or the 21st Centauri Lancers, in example, than having always the same old, same old übermercs time and again.
Well, that ends my exposition. There's a problem and it has to be solved. I'd post the possible solutions later on.
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 05:42 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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See? I'm not alone! Huzzah!
The nuking aspect was the easiest way to solve the problem that I could see, the problem being ... well, what you defined just now. Virtually unbeatable in the field, with resources like mad, and a sustainable future, there just aren't many ways to deal with them. You can't even have them fade away in a time of peace, since they have bottomless pockets.
Gah.
It was basicly go with Waco's Revenge, let a plague sweep the planet (Natural, not Germwar!), or throw the entirity of, say, the Jade Falcons at them, in a mutual annihilation. Which stinks, because I *like* the Falcons. Great 'villains'.
No matter how much damage is done to them, they can rebuild with fair ease ... a breeding program to keep a constant flow of new men, an on-planet factory, a *second* factory that makes almost eclusives, and massive, massive cash reserves. It would take something catestrophic to remove them.
I look forward to Vampire's, and other people's, view on how this could be done. Believe me, I'm open to other methods.
Two last bits.
First, for those who felt the Dragoons weren't all that powerful, I should point out that after the 4th succession war, the Dragoons had as many Battlemech factories as House Liao, and more warships. Gads.
Secondly, for Vampire ... I notice you didn't deal with the Highlanders. Subsumed into the Cappies? Returned to the Davions? Broken up?
-- Old Dog, brainstorming bowser.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 06:48 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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Quote:
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On 2002-06-01 05:42, Old Dog wrote:
See? I'm not alone! Huzzah!
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And FASA was of the same opinion, in their latest outlines the fist steps were taken to deal with some units, latest novel has two merc units from the FM that would qualify as munch being destroyed.
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The nuking aspect was the easiest way to solve the problem that I could see [snip]
It would take something catestrophic to remove them.
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That was a botched job, the word in Dpanish is "chapuza".
Actually, from my exposition, and anyone that has read Wolf Pack, the seeds of the Dragoon's destruction are already sown inside of them.
It would take infighting and a series of misfortunes to remove the Dragoon's as a power player, nto destroying them utterly, still leaving some of them to give their hardcore fans something to cling onto. But the whole kingdom of Outreach, their Warships , the breeding program and Outreach must be removed.
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Secondly, for Vampire ... I notice you didn't deal with the Highlanders.
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Because the status quo is satisfactory, as long as they don't become a second WD with their own 'Mech factories, and keep to themselves, they can stay on Northwind as an independent world, possibly becoming a Capellan satellite, as hinted in Highlander Gambit, integration into the SLDF is another option, but I'm under the impression that the Highlanders ties are first to Northwind and themselves, second to the Confederation, and if I'm not mistaken, only the Black Watch secret society had any ties with the Star League.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 08:46 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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Quote:
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On 2002-06-01 06:48, Vampire wrote:
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On 2002-06-01 05:42, Old Dog wrote:
See? I'm not alone! Huzzah!
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And FASA was of the same opinion, in their latest outlines the fist steps were taken to deal with some units, latest novel has two merc units from the FM that would qualify as munch being destroyed.
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SPOILER ALERT!!!!
Ok, I realize that you're most likely including Storm's Metal Thunder (dammit...that was the last big name merc unit that Katherine had on her payroll, and one of the last big name pro-Steiner merc units out there, after the Grey Death Legion's decimation...the only other left might be considered to be Mobile Fire...no, I don't count the Kell Hounds in this..and well...there is Hansen's Roughriders...), but what is the other munch merc unit? Barber's Marauder IIs? How do they qualify as munch? Granted, they are a reinforced battalion of MADs and MAD-IIs, but I hardly consider that munch really...
BTW...I pity the units taking out Storm's Metal Thunder...unless some stupid moves were made, they would have put some serious hurt on the Falcons...144 'Mechs (many of which are assault 'Mechs and mostly heavy 'Mechs, especially in 3rd Battalion's 64 'Mechs), and at least a company of Sloth suits, plus another two companies of anti-'Mech infantry, along with 26 aerospace fighters?
Ruger
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Vard
Draconis Combine
Heishi
Joined: 16-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 19
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 10:58 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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I think Barber's Marauder II's are a regiment, unless that has changed since TR-3050. The Dragoons are a bit powerful, but they seem to have no problems outside of "Leave Remus the $%&# alone" When not contracted they stick to themselves.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 11:07 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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but what is the other munch merc unit? Barber's Marauder IIs? How do they qualify as munch? Granted, they are a reinforced battalion of MADs and MAD-IIs, but I hardly consider that munch really...
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Actually they have been written off because they used Unseens. I agree that they aren't munch.
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 11:33 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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Everyone is forgetting Smithson's Chinese Bandits!
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 11:38 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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On 2002-06-01 11:07, Vampire wrote:
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but what is the other munch merc unit? Barber's Marauder IIs? How do they qualify as munch? Granted, they are a reinforced battalion of MADs and MAD-IIs, but I hardly consider that munch really...
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Actually they have been written off because they used Unseens. I agree that they aren't munch.
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I'll dispute that...show me the proof that THAT is why...
They were a mere battalion of mercs, in 'Mechs that pretty much only had 2 ER PPCs (in the arms) and a single LB-10X each, with little other support, who dug in a fought the Falcons to the last man...THAT is why they died...if even Storm's Metal Thunder could die almost to the last man, Barber's Marauder IIs didn't stand a chance...
There is no reason for them to be written off because they are Unseen...RS: 3067 is proof enough of that...see for yourself in 17 days...there are ELEVEN Marauder variants in that book...
Ruger
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 11:40 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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Quote:
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On 2002-06-01 10:58, Vard wrote:
I think Barber's Marauder II's are a regiment, unless that has changed since TR-3050. The Dragoons are a bit powerful, but they seem to have no problems outside of "Leave Remus the $%&# alone" When not contracted they stick to themselves.
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FM: Mercenaries lists them as a Battalion...
Ruger
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8050
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 11:45 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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Quote:
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On 2002-06-01 11:38, Ruger wrote:
I'll dispute that...show me the proof that THAT is why...
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There isn't any "proof", but if you look at it logically you'll see that Vamps has probably hit the reason right on the head.
For a long time the "unseen" were also "unmentioned", so the fact that a unit is comprised of mechs that weren't being used anymore would kill off that unit. A merc unit of mechwarriors without mechs is just about useless, correct?
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2002 13:43 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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Recapitulating
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Kell Hounds, either merge with Clan Wolf in Exile or become house troops.
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Or just have them beaten up by the Jade Falcons. Or all three.
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Eridani, join the SDLF, this is no longer a problem, it was already almost a House unit.
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they are SLDF now, don't they?
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MacCarron's Armored Cavalry, taken care of already, House unit.
Wich leaves us with the Northwind Highlanders and the Dragoons. What to do with them? The Highlanders ain't that bad, but the Dragoons must go.
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Wolf's Dragoons, wear them down with a series of problems, and divivde them up. Goals: reduce them in size, make them lose Outreach, their factories, their Warships, and their control of the merc business.
How to do it? Proposals, a combination of the following (not neccessarily in that order):
-Infighting after Jaime Wolf death.
-Have the truth about their activities (breeding program) discovered. Popular opinion would force the Federated Suns to ask them leave Outreach. Possible scheming by Word of Blake or Maskirovka
-Have one side of the FedCom civil war target Outreach to take control of the Dragoon's 'Mech factories.
-Make the Dragoon's position in Outreach untenable, so they have to leave. At this stage, any remaining WD's split into three groups (about one regiment in size each). Trueborn warriors and Clanners join the Wolves in Exile or Clan Wolf. Another part join the SDLF, and the others, well, just drift away,
The Warships are destroyed either in the evacuation of Outreach, or split between the SLDF navy and the Clan Wolf
- Add some sort of "Revenge of Waco" scenery to add to their misery or to spark the Dragoon's troubles. Nothing as brutal as Old Dog idea, just something so Waco gets his vengeance and the Dragoons are hurt.
And now the bombshell:
Outlaw mercsenaries.
Make Thomas Marik (with the backing of other interested parties) propose a Star League edict that bans the hiring of mercenaries. It is well known that he has little regard for mercenaries who profit from war, are a menace to peace and a challenge to the stablished social order. And this would be a very likely move from them. And anyway, the armies of the Inner Sphere are now strong enough to don't need the services of mercenaries as much as before, and see them now as a liability.
And the Wolf's Dragoons are the worst example of profiteering from war, the Microsoft of mercenaries.
Of course, this ban would be circumvented, wirtten the law, written the loophole. It would not prevent mercs from being used in the FedCom Civil War, the Chaos March, and of course, the Periphery.
And as Theodore Kurita demonstrated, you can hire mercenaries as a particular even if the state has forbidden the hiring of mercenaries.
As an example, the Federated Suns government could not hire mercs, but the duke of the Capellan March could, as a particular, not as a government official.
This ban alone would result on the closing down of shop at Outreach, with mercenary travel to Outreach forbidden, the Dragoon's main source of income would be closed. Moreover, mercenaries wouldn't trust the Dragoons once the truth was revealed and would refuse to do business there, and now that I recall, the Federated Suns can decree a trade embargo against Outreach,as it's a semi arid planet dependent on imports, that alone would force the Dragoons to move.
The aim is not to remove mercenaries from the game, there will be always a (black) market for hired guns. It's just that particular employers will not need and will not be able to pay for the services of the largest units, putting the focus back on smaller units, from regiment downwards, turning mercenaries into small roving bands, lots of them. That would give more protagonisms to the players that run a mercenary campaign,and would give players more freedom to get their homemade units into the setting.
And at any rate, it is a proven fact that units larger than a regiment ended up settling down in cantontments under long term contracts. Small units formed by individuals without roots can lead a nomadic existence, jumping from one contract to another, while units regiment size and up tend to attract a retinue of camp followers and this forces the unit to stop wandering and seek a safehaven to settle the families of the unit.
And it's another proven fact that the logistics of a unit larger than a regiment become almost unmanageable, and that mercs cannot keep up with tech level of regular units, nowadays.
Now what? With Outreach closed, we need a new planet that serves as a hiring hall, as mercs aren't gone, the übermercs are either destroyed or assimilated, but the market for mercenaries is still around.
My proposal: make Northwind the new "Mercenaries' Star" and move the MRBC there.
It's an independent world, is even better situated than Outreach, and the Highlanders can police the place and get some indirect income from it. They are neutral, independent, and have connections with Liao, Davion and the SLDF. They leave the running of business to the MRBC and just take care of security, and they can still hire out their regiments as mercenaries. Mmmm, since they are an independent recognized world, they aren't techincally mercenaries, but "auxiliaries".
And this does not exclude the possibility of other hiring halls in other planets, closer to the zones of the conflict.
The idea is to make Northwind a "Solaris VII" for mercs, less regulated, and more seedy than Outreach.
That's all, contributions welcome.
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 03-Jun-2002 16:08 Post subject: The mercenary question |
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If you move the MRBC to Northwind then you make the Highlanders into the Dragoons and create the need to destroy them as you have agued for the Dragoons. What good is it to destroy one only to create it's clone?
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