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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2754
Location: United States
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 Posted: 29-May-2002 19:47 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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Due to the mechanics of the video games, we are seeing more and more mechs without hand actuators, as well as a resurgance of older mechs lacking them. It seems to me that there are now more mech designs without hands in the newer manuals than with. I have also noticed this trend with engines- more often than not, it's an XL on the newer designs over a standard engine.
My question is, are Hands and Standard Engines officially obsolete on mechs? If so, why? If not, why?
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8050
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-May-2002 19:50 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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Neither is obsolete.
Hands have never been an issue with me (as you well know). Everything depends on the "theories" behind the mech's creation.
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CampingCarl
Free Worlds League
Master Sergeant
Joined: 24-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 176
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-May-2002 19:55 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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I think the main reason is that hands dont have any effect on the game that much. Unless its a campaign, ite better not to have them so you can flip. Engines, Clan XL, why not have it. IS XL, more guns + die easier, some people like that. I prefer Light and std engines most of the time though. I dont use most of the the new mechs, they are mostly the same as the old ones with a med las moved from the CT to the H. 
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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
Joined: 20-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 737
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| Posted: 29-May-2002 21:38 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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hands: whats so good about them in a campaign?
clan xl: dosen't the engine destruction there apply too?
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 29-May-2002 22:41 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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On the XL engine, nope. Vlan XL only take two slots in a side torso, meaning that the loss of said torso just produces 10 more heat. An IS XL engine has three slots in each side torso, meaning that if it's taken out, splat, no more mech.
As such, I *really* avoid taking XL whenever possible. There are only a small number of mechs that the IS has that are improved by them. Light mechs with XL die too easily to being hit, while the larger mechs need the critical spaces and will be hammered too much to survive a breach. That leaves a small class of mediums, and some heavies, as the only ones who are really serviceable with on. And even THEN, the speed increase has to be a significant band adjustment. From a 5 move to a 6 is rarely worth it, but a 6 to a 7 is, while a 4 to a 5 is not. Some like the 5 to 6 speed increase, but YMMV, I suppose.
The rule of thumb is this: If you have to take an XL engine to go the SAME SPEED as the standard for your weight class, you have a Bad Mech. A light mech with an XL that goes 6/9, or, Heaven forbid, 5/8, should never see the field of battle.
To go a speed band higher is sometimes worth it, depending on your critical allocation. For example, a 75 ton mech going from a 300 engine with 15 DHS to a 375 XL with DHS loses less than a ton of weight, gains three critical spaces, and gains a movement better than it's peers. That's a good use of XL.
As for hands, back in the day, I was mortified with the concept of having a handless mech. Kept me in Griffons and Battlemasters over Warhammers and Awesomes for years. In modern Battletech, physical combat is virtually nonexistant, and few people play mission games, like gathering up repair parts/scavange, or the like, perfering to just shoot one another into paste. In a scenario-based game, half yoru mechs or more need hands, just in case.
I feel the urge to produce some retro designs coming on...
-- Old Dog, who never bites the hand what feeds.
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 00:10 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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Let's not forget hand held weapons. AC5 or PPC shot up? Drop it and pick up another one. Hands are definitely a role playing thing. Of course hands allow you to shoot of someone's limb and pick it up and club him with it. A little salt for your wounds?
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 00:28 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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Quote:
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On 2002-05-29 21:38, Ares wrote:
hands: whats so good about them in a campaign?
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They allow you to capture or rescue people if neccessary (used in campaign)...
Ruger
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 00:32 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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Quote:
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On 2002-05-29 22:41, Old Dog wrote:
As such, I *really* avoid taking XL whenever possible. There are only a small number of mechs that the IS has that are improved by them.
The rule of thumb is this: If you have to take an XL engine to go the SAME SPEED as the standard for your weight class, you have a Bad Mech.
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I'd dispute this for the Dragon Fire...the 300 XL allows this 75 tonner to move 4/6, mount full armor and carry an arsenal of a Gauss rifle with 2 tons ammo, a LB-10X with 2 tons ammo in CASE, a Guardian ECM suite, a LL and 2 MPLs (although I've replaced the LL and MPLs with a standard PPC and 2 standard meds on mine)...I truly don't mind the XL on this machine...try to make it any other way, and it loses something...
Ruger
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 03:40 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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This is why it's a rule of thumb, not a law, Ruger.
-- Old Dog, "Why you ask me for? I got paws!"
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 07:32 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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My, what big teeth you have....
I like having HAnds, because I like Physical weapons. Swords, Maces and Axes are some of the best part of Combat.
Sir HEnry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 09:52 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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Quote:
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On 2002-05-30 07:32, Sir Henry wrote:
I like having HAnds, because I like Physical weapons. Swords, Maces and Axes are some of the best part of Combat.
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I take it that you are looking forward to MW: DA then?
Ruger
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 30-May-2002 10:36 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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I like having hands because they`re a few extra slots to soak up critical hits...
That said, no general-purpose mech I design gets away without hands. Fire support mechs don`t need them, others do. Who do you think loads all the ammo and spare parts into the dropships before going off on the next contracted mission? And how can you raid an enemy base if you can`t carry stuff or load a truck very fast?
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-May-2002 07:45 Post subject: Hands + Standard Engines |
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It's one of the reasons I'll give it a try, before condeming is as the POS that it might be....
Sir HEnry, Chainsaws...Give me a break....
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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