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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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 Posted: 29-Sep-2006 12:12 Post subject: HEAT |
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OK, I am thinking that I may be in the minority here, but I'd like to ask you folks how you rate mechs on heat. I've seen alot of discussions about mechs claiming that they have serious heat problems, when I wouldn't ever classify them as such.
The way I look at heat is this:
I break weapon ranges into three ranges.. Long, medium, and short. I then look at the weaponry that is designed to fit into specific ranges, for example LRMs are long.. PPCs are medium and long, Large Lasers are long, medium and short. I then look at the mech and heat sinks.
If the mech cannot heat up after firing all its weapons and running, then that mech has zero heat problems, and is poorly designed. It does not take advantage of the weaponry offered.
If the mech is able to fire the appropriate weapons in each range, and run and not heat up enough in a single turn to affect its movement, it again has no heat problems.
If the mech has ranges that weapons cleanly overlap, and that if it fires all those weapons, and runs, it instantly crests the 14 mark, then the mech has heat concerns, and honestly is probably designed correctly. By the way, Jumpers are the best mechs to design this way as jumping isn't affected by heat.
If the mech cannot fire its main weapon and move without causing the heat to build up past the number which reduces movement, then THAT mech is a design with a Heat problem.
Pin
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Sep-2006 14:52 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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One of my favorite mechs is the Penetrator. It's got 2 ER Large Lasers designed for Long/Medium range and 6 Medium Pulse Lasers designed for Short range. 12 Doubles allow 24 heat dissipation. Each group of weapons generates 24 heat.
So the mech can run, fire all its weapons for that range, and heat up by 2. It's a perfect design, yet some say it's flawed because "it can't fire all it's weapons in the same turn". It also has no XL and 4 jump. Again, PERFECT!!
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 29-Sep-2006 16:06 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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Well...to an extent, but there are some 'mechs where the bracketing technique is not appropriate. Two classes I can think of in particular are:
1) some light or medium 'mechs which simply don't carry many weapons in any case.
2) machines which are specialized for combat at a particular range, like the Hunchback or the Masakari prime. (masakari is not the best example, but you get the example).
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 29-Sep-2006 16:20 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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I'd have to say it depends on the mech's mission profile.
A Jenner overheats every time it fires its short-ranged weapons. But- that's okay because it still has the speed and jump to get out and cool down. Something like an Atlas does not, and it runs very cool.
It is also an exceptionally poor bracket fighter as a result. Really, only an alpha strike can overheat it even marginally. Since it's unlikely the AC-20 and LRM-20 are going to have good shots at the same target, it has more 'heat efficiency' than the Jenner, but could have dropped a sink or two for more firepower.
But . . . it could not overheat by 6-8 points a turn at a given range bracket like the Jenner (i.e., not using long-range weapons). It just can't recover from heat spikes the same way.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 29-Sep-2006 19:15 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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My general, first glance, rule of thumb, is three alpha strikes before losing MP. But then, I don't use bracket fighters very often, so the ability to shoot a lot, quickly, is important to me. Particularly as a range-guy, I want to be able to keep up a hard hitting missile salvo while running away.
Now, if I were to think about it more, I'd probably say a mech should be able to fire all it's weapons for a given range (not short, medium, or long, but at any given hex, if it has a good chance to hit, it should be able to shoot) and walk. The reason I say walk instead of run is that running throws off your aim and so perhaps a running mech shouldn't be wasting ammo by firing all its weapons.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 00:46 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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Now, if I were to think about it more, I'd probably say a mech should be able to fire all it's weapons for a given range (not short, medium, or long, but at any given hex, if it has a good chance to hit, it should be able to shoot) and walk. The reason I say walk instead of run is that running throws off your aim and so perhaps a running mech shouldn't be wasting ammo by firing all its weapons.
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I think some of you are misunderstanding my ranges. I use them as generic distance descriptions. I don't tend to specifically use 'bracket fighters', but what I do is look at the weapons in the arc that can hit, determine my max damage in terms of approximate percentages, and then calculate my heat.
I have no problems firing a PPC, or even LRMs at range 1 if I believe they stand a good chance of hitting.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 00:52 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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I actually agree with you on this. And I have had a few designs blasted for it, I think it requires a lot of fire dicipline and the desire to ride the heat curve. And though I dont mind heat efficent energy boats (prefer energy weapons to ballistics personally) I am getting to like bracket fighters. I am posting one in the design forum that I kind of like (though there are a lot that wont because it cant alpha strike) Let me know what you think of it.
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If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 13:04 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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On 2006-09-30 00:46, Pinhead wrote:
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Now, if I were to think about it more, I'd probably say a mech should be able to fire all it's weapons for a given range (not short, medium, or long, but at any given hex, if it has a good chance to hit, it should be able to shoot) and walk. The reason I say walk instead of run is that running throws off your aim and so perhaps a running mech shouldn't be wasting ammo by firing all its weapons.
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I think some of you are misunderstanding my ranges. I use them as generic distance descriptions. I don't tend to specifically use 'bracket fighters', but what I do is look at the weapons in the arc that can hit, determine my max damage in terms of approximate percentages, and then calculate my heat.
I have no problems firing a PPC, or even LRMs at range 1 if I believe they stand a good chance of hitting.
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I'm not in fundamental disagreement, and I've been known to let loose with LRMs and PPCs at well within minimum range if I needed to stop a mech cold while running away.
But I don't think we can really count that when thinking about heat problems. Using these weapons that way is not their intended use, and so any heat build up from that is probably not considered when designing a mech.
For example: on a modern naval ship, when talking about Point Defense, they talk about the Sparrow Missile and the CWIS gun. The 5 inch on the bow can do point defense too, but when measuring a ships point defense, we don't count it.
Same idea with PPCs and LRMs at short range with heat.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 14:11 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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I'm not in fundamental disagreement, and I've been known to let loose with LRMs and PPCs at well within minimum range if I needed to stop a mech cold while running away.
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Running away? What manner of fighting is that? Could you describe? I am not sure that I understand your reference.
I use the ability to fire additional weaponry that caues me to heat up during instances when I have the other mech at a disadvantage, and want to inflict serious hurt. I can't recall ever really considering using this running away tactic.
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But I don't think we can really count that when thinking about heat problems. Using these weapons that way is not their intended use, and so any heat build up from that is probably not considered when designing a mech.
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Possibly true, but I've seen mechs that are designed with the different ranges in mind. The Warhammer is a good example. It has a good mix of long range weapons, and short. The mech runs quite cool unless someone wanted to unload with every weapon each turn, yet many people complain about it having a heat problem.
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For example: on a modern naval ship, when talking about Point Defense, they talk about the Sparrow Missile and the CWIS gun. The 5 inch on the bow can do point defense too, but when measuring a ships point defense, we don't count it.
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I'd expect that if an enemy could get a ship or a target through the outer guns to point blank range, the warship would be opening up with every single gun it could bring to bear in an attempt to down its target. You are thinking missles etc, that simply cannot be effectively engaged with the larger guns.
Pin
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 15:29 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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| The Warhammer itself doesn't have bad heat problems, it's just that at 4-6 hexes the temptation to open up is very strong. The power of 2 PPC's, 2 medium lasers, and a SRM-6, all with good hit numbers, are hard to resist. And you can give in to the temptation once if you're feeling lucky- twice if you're feeling very, very lucky. It's when you overestimate your luck that the heat kills you.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 16:02 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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Well, I usually think about heat problems if the mech produces a lot of heat while firing weapons that can reach specific range bracket. I usually try to find some pattern that may keep the heat in check, so if there is nothing like that than I would say that the mech has a heat problem.
For example the 3R marauder, which was used as an example in a different topic at the beginning of this debate, can use it's PPCs and AC in one turn (slowing down while doing so, but it's manageable), than silencing one of the PPCs for cooling down and than repeating, is a good example of this tactic. It can even handle repeated salvos, but it will cost you. I think that while the MAD-3R is far from problem free, it's still a good mech. If it had a third PPC in AC's place, than I would mark the 3rd PPC as a useless paper weight.
I can't say that I'm a great player, but if the mech needs some fire discipline than it doesn't mean that it's bad. That would be my point view on heat problems.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 17:01 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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Pin forgets what I fly.
A Whitworth Pilot who finds himself facing anything heavier than a Wasp inside 6 hexes had better try to get some distance between him and the other guy.
Now, someone take a moment to talk about bracketing.
As I said, when I design a mech, I look at every hex out to max range, if there is a range where more weapons can fire (e.g. outside min range and inside medium range) than can disipate heat in a reasonable time (3 or 4 turns) I consider this to be a problem.
However, just because the PPC can be fired inside 3 hexes or the LRM inside 6, I wouldn't consider these heat buildups when considering heat problems because, generally, I won't be using them. I'll be using the point defense weapons (e.g. on the whitworth the 3 MedLas). The whitworth can fire those guns a couple of times before it has heat problems (the aforemention 3 turns). This ought to be enough time to jump or run away, getting back outside 6 hexes where I can better use my missiles, stop using the lasers, and cool down.
If Pin wants to get technical, Point Defense on a warship refers to attacking missiles and aircraft. The 5-inch gun can do both with either the Starfire shell (a flair) or the Flak shell (which can down both a jet or a cruise missile) though that isn't what the gun was designed to do and they don't do it well. Short range engagements against ships (which is what Pin refered to) are done with the 5-inch (or bigger). Using the Harpoon or the Tomahawk are possible, particularly the Harpoon's horitzonal launch braces. But it's a really bad idea.
This is the comparison to using MedLas at 3 hexes (5-inch) verses the PPC (Harpoon).
The same way we don't consider it a design flaw that the Harpoon isn't used much inside a mile, I don't consider it a heat problem if the PPC is used inside 3 hexes.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 17:05 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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On 2006-09-30 16:02, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
Well, I usually think about heat problems if the mech produces a lot of heat while firing weapons that can reach specific range bracket. I usually try to find some pattern that may keep the heat in check, so if there is nothing like that than I would say that the mech has a heat problem.
For example the 3R marauder, which was used as an example in a different topic at the beginning of this debate, can use it's PPCs and AC in one turn (slowing down while doing so, but it's manageable), than silencing one of the PPCs for cooling down and than repeating, is a good example of this tactic. It can even handle repeated salvos, but it will cost you. I think that while the MAD-3R is far from problem free, it's still a good mech. If it had a third PPC in AC's place, than I would mark the 3rd PPC as a useless paper weight.
I can't say that I'm a great player, but if the mech needs some fire discipline than it doesn't mean that it's bad. That would be my point view on heat problems.
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This is a good point that cannot be over-made. Particularly on the Lvl. 1 mech, heat problems are often self-inflicted. People got too used to being able to shoot everything when they got double heat sinks and couldn't make the adjustment back to fire discipline.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8050
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2006 18:52 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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On 2006-09-30 17:01, SaberDance wrote:
Pin forgets what I fly.
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Odds are he had no idea.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 01-Oct-2006 00:47 Post subject: RE: HEAT |
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On 2006-09-30 17:05, SaberDance wrote:
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On 2006-09-30 16:02, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
I can't say that I'm a great player, but if the mech needs some fire discipline than it doesn't mean that it's bad. That would be my point view on heat problems.
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This is a good point that cannot be over-made. Particularly on the Lvl. 1 mech, heat problems are often self-inflicted. People got too used to being able to shoot everything when they got double heat sinks and couldn't make the adjustment back to fire discipline.
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Quite so. Discipline is good. 
My mechs don't have to be perfectly cool Alpha strikers, but they should be able to pass the first inevitable Alpha strike without having to test for shutdown. As the battle gets older you will be tempted to try it because a tough enemy is in a bad place or perhaps even shutdown from heat! If you want one more broadside from your flagship before it sinks there's no need to count heat.
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