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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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 Posted: 06-May-2002 18:31 Post subject: mech stability |
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I think it keeps a mech standing under normal conditions, with pilot checks needed under "abnormal" conditions.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 18:37 Post subject: mech stability |
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I was hoping for something a little more technical 
Then go ahead and classify excess movement under "abnormal conditions".
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 18:52 Post subject: mech stability |
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We both know how a gyroscope works so I figured that was kinda understood 
To me "abnormal conditions" are anything that's on the pilot skill roll table. I don't classsify "excess movement" as being abnormal.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 21:18 Post subject: mech stability |
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To me "abnormal conditions" are anything that's on the pilot skill roll table.
Maybe that's why its clled a home rule. And just because FASA overlooked something (gee, imagine that) doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit the game.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 21:21 Post subject: mech stability |
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If you keep adding house rules you will eventually be playing a game that's no longer Battletech
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Talen
Capellan Confederation
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 21:41 Post subject: mech stability |
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I see the comparison you're making, but the scale we are using is different. Your argument, and correct me if I am wrong, is that a Spider compared to an Atlas is like a velociraptor compared to an allosaurus. That's a decent comparison, but the speed comparison does not match up. Why is there this sudden leap in speed from 5 tons up to 30 tons? Because of the wonders of technology - I doubt it. In trying to mimic natural phenomenon man-made machines often perform less efficiently. Now, we could probably shove a heck of a lot more power through, but I doubt we would be able to attain a 400% increase in speed and 600% increase in mass.
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Look at it this way (again, using cars). If you take a Viper's V-10, and use it in a viper...you are going to get 0-60 of 4 seconds, and a top speed of 200mph. Now...put the same engine in a HUMVEE. Your 0-60 is going to drop dramtically due to the weight, and the engine will be working harder to keep the HUMVEE going as fast as the Viper. Now...put the engine in the back of a VW Bug. The car may or may not have a fats 0-60 (it will most likely spin the tires a lot due to the power). But, theoretically the car would have a faster 0-60 and a fatser top speed due to the fact that the car weighs half of that of the Viper. So, a 200 XL engine in a 30 ton 'mech will be able to propel the 'mech that much faster than a 200XL trying to move a 100 ton 'mech. But we already knew this...
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That's getting away from the issue, though. My train of thought is this: the land speed record for motorcycles is somewhere around 200 mph. I don't think you're going to get a giant bipedal machine to go anywhere near that fast.
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2 things...
1) Motorcycles have a VERY different conenction to the ground than a bi-ped. A much less effective one. A bi-ped can stay upright while moving better than an in-line wheel can.
2)Why wont a bi-ped machine go that fast? Again, leg strides are going to move that thing quite a bit. Longer legs are going to get that thing moving at 20-30 foot a stride while its running. The bloody thing IS 2-4 stories tall. Its going to have a major stride, espicially at higher speeds.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 21:44 Post subject: mech stability |
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On 2002-05-06 21:21, chihawk wrote:
If you keep adding house rules you will eventually be playing a game that's no longer Battletech
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OH OH OH! CRY FREEDOM! MY GAME MY GAME! EVERYONE PLAY MY GAME! IT WILL BE ON A WEBPAGE NEAR YOU SOON!
Raven!
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 23:05 Post subject: mech stability |
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from chihawk:
If you keep adding house rules you will eventually be playing a game that's no longer Battletech
So, why are you bothering to review house rules then?
from Talen:
2)Why wont a bi-ped machine go that fast? Again, leg strides are going to move that thing quite a bit. Longer legs are going to get that thing moving at 20-30 foot a stride while its running. The bloody thing IS 2-4 stories tall. Its going to have a major stride, espicially at higher speeds.
You missed the point of my post. The realistic reason Battlemechs won't move that fast is due to the same reason dinosaurs didn't move that fast: the mechanics just isn't there. It's not proportional like you think. All systems exhibit saturation point where you can shove more power and energy into them and they won't do anything (except maybe fry).
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 06-May-2002 23:06 Post subject: mech stability |
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On 2002-05-06 21:44, Raven! wrote:
OH OH OH! CRY FREEDOM! MY GAME MY GAME! EVERYONE PLAY MY GAME! IT WILL BE ON A WEBPAGE NEAR YOU SOON!
Raven!
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Looking forward to it.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 07-May-2002 06:17 Post subject: mech stability |
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On 2002-05-06 23:05, Gangrene wrote:
from chihawk:
If you keep adding house rules you will eventually be playing a game that's no longer Battletech
So, why are you bothering to review house rules then?
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You never mentioned this was anything but a proposed rules change to the game until just a few posts ago. And even if this did start out as a house rule there is IMO no basis for it.
You have a bias against mechs moving fast and just about every "suggestion" you have is meant to take away a light mech's ability to use speed to defend itself. Assault mechs use armor to defend the fact they don't move fast and are easy to target; lights use speed to defend the fact they have a limited amount of armor.
And I've never once seen anyone complain about the amount of armor an assualt mech has...
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
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| Posted: 07-May-2002 07:43 Post subject: mech stability |
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Okay, you asked for it.
I imagine mechs would follow the same rules as runing humans, except for 4 legged mechs and I'm just not ready to go there right now.
Anyhow, a running human has several forces working on them when they make a turn.
Gravity, Momentum and the Coefficient of Friction.
Gravity always tries to pull the person to toward the center of the earth. Momentum want to resist the turning forces and keep the person moving in the same direction. The Coefficient of friction is what keeps your feet sticking to the ground when you run.
When a person running enters a turn they don't slow down, they lean into the turn. The effect this has is to move their Center of Gravity to the inside of the turn, making Momentum pull through a portion of their contact patch. This has the effect of increasing their Coefficient of Friction through added downforce.
Cars don't lean into a turn. They lean out of a turn, wich is why they are more skid prone than motorcycles. Motorcycle land speed records are immaterial, as they don't turn when they are trying to set a speed record.
Now, you know why you don't see tanks tooling around on the city streets? Because even a Bradley fighting vehicle would tear up the asphalt. Now, instead of those big treads, let's give it two small contact patches. Can you see the big, whumping holes in the pavement? This movement model is a stronger argument against the skidding rules than it is for. Grass, small rocks, shrubs, infantry, any small object is just going to be smashed by a running mech of any size.
Next silly question?
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
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| Posted: 07-May-2002 08:27 Post subject: mech stability |
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Hardware, don't bring realism or truth into this discussion. We're talking FASA Physics, what do they have to do with them....Nada....
Sir Henry
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
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Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 07-May-2002 11:12 Post subject: mech stability |
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The "problem" is neatly ignored just by not
using the Level 3 Extended Movement Modifiers chart from MaxTech. You`re not going to see very many speed demons when
they`re not getting any more + to hit for
those hexes over 12.
And if your opponent insists, you should
also insist. On the Limited Criticals and
the Piloting Check Modifiers for 20+ damage
and Physical attacks that cause such.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 07-May-2002 12:05 Post subject: mech stability |
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On 2002-05-07 06:17, chihawk wrote:
You never mentioned this was anything but a proposed rules change to the game until just a few posts ago.
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Their kind of one and the same. I can't change the rules, so I just post stuff that I would like to see changed. Which would fit my definition of house rules.
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And even if this did start out as a house rule there is IMO no basis for it.
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That was the point of the mechanics discussion and the slipping discussion. As I said, this is one of those things where we agree to disagree.
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You have a bias against mechs moving fast and just about every "suggestion" you have is meant to take away a light mech's ability to use speed to defend itself.
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Battletech is one of those games I would like to see made more realistic. Realistically, speed isn't much of a defense against the best military hardware.
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And I've never once seen anyone complain about the amount of armor an assualt mech has...
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Believe it or not I am not satisfied with how that works either. I am not against light mechs being potent, its just that their means of potentcy is so silly.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 07-May-2002 12:22 Post subject: mech stability |
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On 2002-05-07 07:43, Hardware wrote:
Okay, you asked for it.
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Bring it.
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I imagine mechs would follow the same rules as runing humans.
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As I said to Talen, that is probably wrong. Size matters, and things are not linearly proportional.
snipped turning discussion
Again, as I already said to Talen a system does NOT have to be in a turn to become unstable. A mutlitude of systems become unstable just due to shear speed.
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Motorcycle land speed records are immaterial, as they don't turn when they are trying to set a speed record.
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See above comment.
Also, do you really think a robot would ever be able to reach those speeds by actuation of the legs? I don't think so.
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