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master arminas
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Colonel
Joined: 07-Mar-2007 16:14
Posts: 718
Location: United States
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 Posted: 09-Jan-2012 19:03 Post subject: Re: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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| Jade_Dragon wrote: | My main point was this, assaults are about assaulting, i.e. brute force. If you need a blend of firepower and speed then you need to be looking at the heavy or medium weight classes depending how much speed vs firepower you really need. That is more or less the whole point of the classes. If you try and make an assault class scout you end up with something as bad as the ol'Charger which is not really fast enough to be a scout and not really good for anything but a big target. Same thing in reverse if you try and make a light gun platform, yeah it can shot more than it other little brothers but as soon as something bigger comes along it can out shoot it and probably out move it.
I do agree with you in that FASA was going more and more with just another gun platform after another gun platform. The Night Gyr I liked as it had the JJs which gave it some mobility the Nova Cat was just a pure gun platform which I do not like from a flavor standpoint and from effeciency why just bring in a Warhawk Omni? |
Very true. However, I think that I managed to balance speed, armor, and firepower on these designs (in my own humble opinion). For example, take the Ghost Bear. It's armament is based on that of the old Atlas, yet the Clan improvement on weapons keep it still very respectable for the 3050 battlefield, with a possiblity of 75 points of damage (front) and 21 points (rear). While packing near max armor and moving at 4/6.
Or the Dune Stalker, which is basically a 4/6 Stalker. Only the large lasers are now the equivilant of PPCs and the mediums are equal to larges! Never mind it increases size of the LRM launchers. Only if you want to get into the mind-boggling amounts of firepower of a canon Dire Wolf or Supernova or Gausszilla do you need to make that sacrifice. At least in my own view.
And I like my jumping Warhawk. Glad you did as well.
Master Arminas
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing--Edmund Burke
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1323
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jan-2012 00:11 Post subject: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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My biggest gripe with your AU Juggernaughts was the fact that you continued FASA's mistake in my humble opinion and continued the Gargoyle. At least your CC version is all energy so it uses the big engine to hold a few extra heat sinks, the SJs must have been smoking (pun intended) some good stuff when they did their mod without using the extra sink capacity of the big engine.
It is only the really high end engines that really have the bad weight curve, XLs also help with that. Still I usually do not like seeing anything bigger than 85 tons moving 4/6 though I think 90 works out pretty well too. So your Ghost Bear assault is a reasonable machine, better than the Executioner by far and akin more to the Kodiak. Savage Coyote needs more energy weapons and heat sinks to take advantage of the big engine, I know, goes against the big missile theory. Hmmm...maybe the Savage and Ghost need to trade weights.
So you have...
...the sucky low end assault with the too big engine - Gargoyle
...4/6 gun platforms - Dune Stalker & Thunder Stallion
...4/6/4 jumper with range - Warhawk
...4/6 brawler - Ghost Bear
...4/6 missile boat - Savage Coyote
...3/5 gun plateforms - Blood Drinker & Dire Wolf
So what you do not have...
...3/5/3 missile or sniper
So my second point was to add something with a large payload of weapons with at least some ability to get around in rougher terrain. Something like the Blood Kite.
Hence, drop the sucky and add the missing  to sum it up.
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The JadeDragon
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master arminas
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Colonel
Joined: 07-Mar-2007 16:14
Posts: 718
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Jan-2012 15:39 Post subject: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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I don't really agree with you about the Gargoyle. Yes, the engine is really, really big and inefficient. But it is nothing like the abomination that is the 3025 Charger. Let's look at these.
Gargoyle Mod W (Prime). Ok, moves 5/8, and has nearly full armor with 12.5 tons of ferro-fibrous (97.16% of maximum). Armament is an LB-10X (30 shots!), an LRM-15 w/Artemis IV (24 shots), an ER Large Laser, an ER Medium Laser, and an AMS (24 shots). Pretty well mirrors the Inner Sphere Zeus, but does more damage across the board. Thirteen double heat sinks means its overheats by one point (1) on a running alpha strike with the AMS engaging a flight of incoming missiles. And has the speed to keep pace with heavy-weight designs, making it a superb command 'Mech.
Gargoyle Mod FM. This one is a jumper (5/8/5 movement, same as an IS Griffin, Shadow Hawk, or Wolverine) and is loosely based on the Victor. It has the same armor as the Mod W and one less double heat sink (12). Armament is a right arm LB-20X autocannon (15 shots), a left torso Streak SRM-4 (25 shots), a left arm ER Large Laser, and a head mounted ER Medium Laser. It has to watch that heat gauge, but it can walk and fire the LB-20X and both lasers for zero. That ER Large gives a bite at range, and any class 20 AC that can hit at 12 hexes is something to fear!
Gargoyle Mod CC. Still moves that 5/8 and has 12.5 tons of FF armor, but packs the engine with 23 double heat sinks. Armament is an ER PPC, two ER Large Lasers, and three ER Medium Lasers. If the pilot fires everything except two of the mediums, he is heat neutral while running. This version is a 5/8 Awesome from HELL.
Sure, they can't pack on the weapons that a 4/6 version could, and they are costlier and more inefficient than a heavy (that might carry a larger payload, but not armor!), but they are far from the suck that is the Charger. And all of them make great command units for a heavy-weight Star, as well as excellent flankers and pointmen for true assault units.
At least in my opinion.
Master Arminas
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing--Edmund Burke
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1323
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jan-2012 10:26 Post subject: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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You can do the same thing with a 75 tonner, 12 tons of armor, and still be ahead 2-3 tons for weapons. Now IF you goal is to pack the most armor onto something over weapons then MAYBE going to a fast assault is the answer. However, I personally prefer having an extra 3 tons of weapons over another half ton of armor.
You did fix FASA's screw up of running with a bunch of heat sinks and little energy weapons. Your 80 tonner is a nasty 5/8 mech in any of the 3 variants, pretty much as nasty as you can get for one with that big of an engine.
I still think you need an 85 tonner with a 3/5/3 move profile. Perhaps I should fix that for you....
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The JadeDragon
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master arminas
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Colonel
Joined: 07-Mar-2007 16:14
Posts: 718
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jan-2012 13:21 Post subject: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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By all means. Love to see it.
MA
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing--Edmund Burke
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innersphere3050
Federated Suns
Corporal
Joined: 12-Jan-2011 18:43
Posts: 69
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2012 22:32 Post subject: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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I only looked at the gargoyle and I don't like the gargoyle much either for all the reasons mentioned by Jade Dragon, but.....
I must say your gargoyle with the 2 ER Large, ER PPC and 23 DHS is the best version I have seen. Am now interested in checking out the rest of your designs
Am curious do you follow Clan ROE when you play? I like your LB-20 design you have the good sense to have good speed and mobility on the mech with the LB-20 but I am wary of mechs with 1 long range weapon because you eventually have to close and when trying to close with a similar sized mech with better long range firepower (and Clan) you can be in bad shape by the time you get there. It is a lot easier when another mech is softening up the target on the way in
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master arminas
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Colonel
Joined: 07-Mar-2007 16:14
Posts: 718
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2012 23:10 Post subject: A New Clan Vision: Part IV (The Juggernauts) |
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No, IS3050, my Clans still use zell. And I agree that a short-range 'Mech with only a single long-range weapon is at a disadvantage at range. But the Gargoyle Mod FM is fast enough (and has enough JJs) that it can close quickly. I stand firmly in the camp of 'smart Clanners'. They fight honorable duels, but they fully use terrain to cover and conceal their moves. I don't play it as a breech of zell if one duelist ducks behind a woods hex, or uses a ridge to shield him from his opponent: that isn't dishonorable, it's thinking tactically. So long as the duelist emerges to continue the engagement. If he uses cover or terrain to break off, yeah, he just ran. The coward.
In many ways, this reminds me of a discussion I have with someone on Solaris VII who declared it was dezgra to jump into someones rear and open fire on them. Ridiculous, I say! There is a reason that jumping 'Mechs have tactical advantages, and that is one of them. As long as the combat is begun honorably (not with surprise or deception) and the opponent is aware of your capabilities to do so, then it is the responsibility of your opponent to keep you out of his rear arc.
Hope that answers your questions.
MA
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing--Edmund Burke
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