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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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 Posted: 23-Feb-2004 15:08 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I know you are but what am I? hehe
What can I say, I do not play very delicately. I have Vikings for ancestors so I tend to be rather blunt.
I am excited though, I just found another local opponent. From the sounds of it he should be quite a challange to play against. I have always enjoyed playing against people better than I am. It teaches one humility. It also makes you a better player because you are always challanged. The thing I hate about it though is paying dearly for my simple mistakes.
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Festina Lente!
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Feb-2004 06:14 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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It's the paying dearly that teaches you. It's an object lesson... 
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Feb-2004 12:57 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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yup.
If you keep getting hit hard in the same spot, protect it better.
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Festina Lente!
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-May-2004 17:31 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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On 2004-02-23 15:08, Oafman wrote:
I know you are but what am I? hehe
What can I say, I do not play very delicately. I have Vikings for ancestors so I tend to be rather blunt.
I am excited though, I just found another local opponent. From the sounds of it he should be quite a challange to play against. I have always enjoyed playing against people better than I am. It teaches one humility. It also makes you a better player because you are always challanged. The thing I hate about it though is paying dearly for my simple mistakes.
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I'm assuming you meant Seraph when you posted this (since was shortly before he joined and all your posts about playing together) And I know exactly what you mean. In my online campaign I set up a nice ambush for one of our scenarios, and not only did he ruin it, but he devastated my forces. All by simple using a few fast hovercraft to find my ambushers and spring the trap too early.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 20-May-2004 19:54 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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You did say I could get them btw. 
Without recon you would have a hard time conducting war.
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 01:35 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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OK, I tried to read the whole thread, I think I suceeded.
I see three camps: "The Rules Are Fine," "Heads Are Stupid," and "Heads Aren't Stupid, But The Rules Could Use Some Tweaking."
I think I have to be in the latter camp.
This could only be my imagination, and having never read the fiction this is all I have to go on, but I always envisioned the inside of a mech cockpit as almost a full body suit, with leg and arm clamps, so that things that required a pilot's concious attention could be reflexive (I meaning moving the arms, shooting stuff, kicking, jumping, et cetera. If a pilot is in a frame, and regaining his balance inside a cockpit would help his mech regain its balance (with help from the gyros and sensors), it would be a plus. In any case, it doesn't really matter where the cockpit is, whether in the torso or in the head.
Now, a certain aesthetic does draw one to head mounted cockpit, but let's not be to hasty in always sticking it there. However, lets not overlook some advantages to a head: hight, clearance, natural feel, and the half a second of reaction time a pilot has to punch out of a mech that is going nova.
The major advantage of eyes over machines is depth perception, and perhaps by 3050 we've fixed this problem so that screens can be stereoscopic, but, having played Armored Fist II, I can tell you, manually projecting the arc of a shell on a flat screen is very much an art, and it takes a long time, probably just long enough for someone using his eyes and an arm extension to blast you into oblivion.
As for the rules, I never considered a hit to any location to be a hit to that particular location. The rules already include damage-transfer. I always considered a hit location to be the armor over the internal components. So a head hit could realy better be called a cockpit hit. In this case, assuming cockpits are built around a human body, a direct hit to the cockpit could only have so much armor to blow through. On an Atlas, with that big head of its, a strike to the left eye would really be construed as a hit to the left torso, since the cockpit is further to the center.
I did like Ralgith's torso Ejection system, I probably won't use it, because I've always ignored the torso ejection rules anyway. I figured that if the designers of the B52 and B2 can figure out a way to attach ejection seats for the bombadier and radar operator, surely somebody on Hesperas II can figure out how to get the pilot out of a burning mech's torso.
And as for killing players, I don't make a habbit of it. I find it very unsatisfying for characters to fall to lucky shots. They fail to lucky shots (having to punch out of a mech and sit out the rest of the battle) but they cannot die to them. All characters (even my named NPCs) have script immunity. That is, they cannot die, except in a particularly dramatic sort of way. It makes the game more satisfying. After all, the death of Obi Wan Kenobi (Star Wars) is dramatic (he's saving Luke's Life), but the death of Tasha Yar (Star Trek) is anti-climactic, and only valuable because it provided a dramatic opportunity (which I'm pretty sure they weren't planning) two seasons later with the Enterprise C and the Romulan descendent of Lt. Yar.
M"SD"H
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 08:28 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Wow what a neat thread. I have more than 2 cents to add but I'll try and keep it concise.
Today, 2004, plenty of vehicles are run entirely on sensors. Take the technology to the next level where you have a neuro-helmet that can pretty much jack into the pilot's CNS and bypass the pilot's inner-ear receptors with feedback from the mech's gyro ... yeah you don't need eyes to pilot it. You don't need vid-screens. You don't need speakers in the cockpit. Everything is transferred through the wires directly to your brain. In the end a paraplegic could pilot a mech because all neuro-stimuli really can be directly transferred through the helmet to the brain.
Given that the majority of the sensors in the mech would not be external, but rather internal. Sensors in the feet to indicate how much pressure is being applies to the ground. Sensors in the legs to indicate what exact position the legs are in. Sensors in the arms to indicate what angle they are at. All of this data could be hard-wired into a pilot and effectively the pilot becomes the machine. Similar to rigging in shadowrun. Also external sensors tend to be a lot more rugged than you people think.
So that's my take on it. You can put the cockpit anywhere you want since in my mind you could have an armless, legless, blind and deaf person piloting the mech just fine.
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I know nothing.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 09:19 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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What you propose was available at the time of the Star League, there was an advanced neurohelmet , you didn't even need an eye slit, the info from the sensors passed directly to the sensors
Sadly it's lostech.
It makes a good plot device, though. I wrote a short story about a 'Mechwarrior that lost both eyes gouged out by a piece of shrapnel, and then fought on using that neurohelmet, when he was caught as a bondsman by the Clanners (Smoke Jaguars) he had impressed his captors so much that they used their regenerative medicine to grow him a pair of new eyes (yeah, completely implausible as clanners have been depicted, but technically possible)
I still think the Star League neurohelmet would be a great plot device.. imagine, the blind 'Mechwarrior that only can "see" when hooked to his 'Mech.
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Memento audare semper
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 09:27 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 09:19, Vampire wrote:
What you propose was available at the time of the Star League, there was an advanced neurohelmet , you didn't even need an eye slit, the info from the sensors passed directly to the sensors
Sadly it's lostech.
It makes a good plot device, though. I wrote a short story about a 'Mechwarrior that lost both eyes gouged out by a piece of shrapnel, and then fought on using that neurohelmet, when he was caught as a bondsman by the Clanners (Smoke Jaguars) he had impressed his captors so much that they used their regenerative medicine to grow him a pair of new eyes (yeah, completely implausible as clanners have been depicted, but technically possible)
I still think the Star League neurohelmet would be a great plot device.. imagine, the blind 'Mechwarrior that only can "see" when hooked to his 'Mech.
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Ok the other paradigm of control I see as being feasible for battlemechs is the suspended body-suit (someone else mentioned this above) where the pilot is basically suspended in a feedback harness and the pilot and the mech become one. This is slightly lower rech than the "override the lower brain functions" method above and rather just uses the body as the means of user input. This is much easier to construct that a neuro-helmet that bypasses all processes. So to move the mech's arm the pilot moves his arm ... to walk the pilot walks ... etc. This would also be very good for balance since when the mech got hit the pilot would also be rocked in a similar manner and could use his inner ear to retain balance ...
Regardless I realize this is not how BT works ... but to me I see this as the right way to pilot a mech.
Anyhow what exact does the current neurohelmet supposedly do anyhow? If it doesn't do some sort of direct neural input then what is the point of it other than some neat looking thing to put on??
I do not see it as feasible that the controls in a mech's cockpit are similar to the controls in a modern-day piece of construction machinery like a Cat or something ... which is basically just a seat with a bunch of levers ... because there is no way a combat machine as big and as lumbering as a mech could be effectively piloted like that. Battlemechs would have trouble running if that were the case ... even with a gyro ... much less kicking or shooting other battlemechs.
[ This Message was edited by: Feral on 2004-05-21 09:30 ]
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 10:50 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I don't have the fluff text in front of me, but according to the MechWarrior core rules (the extremely old, 1986 version  ) a nuerohelmet serves to help the pilot coordinate his mech. It's something slightly more advanced than the "look down, shoot down" technology on a helocopter pilot's helmet.
From what I gather, you pilot the mech with your arms and legs, and use your eyes to target the weapons. The neurohelmet corrects your aim.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 13:33 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Actually according to the fiction, the crosshairs are adjusted by means of joysticks on each armrest of the command couch.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 15:37 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 13:33, ralgith wrote:
Actually according to the fiction, the crosshairs are adjusted by means of joysticks on each armrest of the command couch.
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To quote myself from just a few seconds ago...
Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 15:36, chihawk wrote:
As many have been told before you, the novels have little to do with the board game.
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www.210sportsblog.com
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 19:41 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 15:37, chihawk wrote:
Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 13:33, ralgith wrote:
Actually according to the fiction, the crosshairs are adjusted by means of joysticks on each armrest of the command couch.
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To quote myself from just a few seconds ago...
Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 15:36, chihawk wrote:
As many have been told before you, the novels have little to do with the board game.
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Unfourtunatly Chihawk, that is true  Authors should have been gamers first  Course I guess they didnt have the time for that.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8052
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-May-2004 20:18 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 19:41, ralgith wrote:
Unfourtunatly Chihawk, that is true Authors should have been gamers first Course I guess they didnt have the time for that.
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I know a lot of writters...unless they have procrastinated and are facing a deadline time is seldom an issue for the ones I know.
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www.210sportsblog.com
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 22-May-2004 05:01 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-21 09:27, Feral wrote:
Anyhow what exact does the current neurohelmet supposedly do anyhow? If it doesn't do some sort of direct neural input then what is the point of it other than some neat looking thing to put on??
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IIRC the neurohelmet is what allows you to keep the mech standing automatically. It somehow interacts with your inner ears, feeding you attitude info and picking up any corrections you "feel" should be made. This frees you to handle the rest of the mech, such as making decisions and shooting stuff.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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