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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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 Posted: 20-Feb-2004 19:05 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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On 2004-02-20 15:09, -Mud wrote:
What happens when the sensors suffer damage...not just the ones mounted underneath the armor, but all of the external cameras, heat sensors, and everything else you are going to need. Some grunt could blind your 'mech with a blast of machine gun fire.
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Believe it or not a lot of modern military equipment rely on a computer and sensor subsystem to operate at all. So I don't see why you guys think that if its that way in the future suddenly military units will become unnecessarily weak.
Also, if you compare your statement with the rules regarding sensor hits they don't match. Sensors are not openly exposed to enemy fire.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-02-20 19:12 ]
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 19:09 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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As a stand alone rules set it seems reasonable, and the fluff is good.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-02-20 21:49 ]
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 19:19 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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On 2004-02-20 01:11, ralgith wrote:
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On 2004-02-20 00:38, Gangrene wrote:
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On 2004-02-20 00:15, ralgith wrote:
Actually modern phsycology confirms it.
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No it doesn't.
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Check again, yes it does. I have a friend who is in college and phsycology is his major.
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Well I had two firends in college who both graduated with the degrees in psychology and I took more than the required number of classes in that field. My answer is still "no, it doesn't."
The whole thing is a BS argument, that's why I didn't originally respond to it.
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Gangrene
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 19:23 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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| I'm in the school of thought which says character death should not be uncommon in mechwarrior. I mean, it is war...and the dead character's little brother can always step in to pilot the family 'mech.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 19:30 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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On 2004-02-20 19:05, Gangrene wrote:
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On 2004-02-20 15:09, -Mud wrote:
What happens when the sensors suffer damage...not just the ones mounted underneath the armor, but all of the external cameras, heat sensors, and everything else you are going to need. Some grunt could blind your 'mech with a blast of machine gun fire.
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Believe it or not a lot of modern military equipment rely on a computer and sensor subsystem to operate at all. So I don't see why you guys think that if its that way in the future suddenly military units will become unnecessarily weak.
Also, if you compare your statement with the rules regarding sensor hits they don't match. Sensors are not openly exposed to enemy fire.
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I was trying to differentiate between the sensors mounted in the head (or torso with a torso mounted cockpit) and the sensors (cameras, IR scanners and such) mounted on the 'mech's exterior. I think with torso mounted cockpits there would have to be a sensor critical in each body part, and damage to those sensors would inflict penalties. The system would have some protection granted, but I think increased sensor vulnerability would be inevitable if you took away the pilot's Mark I eyeballs. Sealing the pilot deep inside of the 'mech would also remove his sense of hearing, requiring microphones attached to the exterior of the 'mech. Think about how much you rely on hearing when you drive? Ultimately though, I think the torso mounted cockpit idea would only work as an engineering idea if you also equipped the pilot with a cybernetic link with the 'mech, like they have in protomechs. I don't know why they didn't do that originally, even with regular cockpits. I've always had trouble seeing how you could effectively maneuver a 'mech using foot pedals and joysticks. Maybe some kind of rig which translated the pilot's body motion into 'mech motion...kind of like that loader Ripley uses in Aliens, but on a much grander scale.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 20:14 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Well I'm willing to drop it, since it's mostly a matter of personal opinion I guess. But as I said, I'm not the expert, my friend is, and he isnt here today. He has 3 more semesters till he graduates.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 20:23 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Well, I'm gonna mostly drop from this argument for the simple matter that it IS an argument. I log in here to have fun and toss ideas around, not argue till I'm blue in the face over something that is essentially trivial.
Glad you liked my torso ejection system gangrene, a lot of thought and discussion went into it in my group because we had a pilot with a custom ride that used a torso cockpit, TSM, JJ's and was for pure physical smackdown. All weapons mounted in torso and head, it had a perfect heat curve for the TSM, it just dropped off 3 level 1 medium lasers after getting to 9 heat in an alpha strike. It was deadly, but the player complained about not being able to eject, so we spent 2 sessions working that out so that it was a good viable rules addition. I actually submitted it to FASA, but they declined to add it to level 2. I think I'm gonna re-submit it to CBT now. It might get published, after all look at all the other new equipment since they took over.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 21:49 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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On 2004-02-20 19:30, -Mud wrote:
I was trying to differentiate between the sensors mounted in the head (or torso with a torso mounted cockpit) and the sensors (cameras, IR scanners and such) mounted on the 'mech's exterior. I think with torso mounted cockpits there would have to be a sensor critical in each body part, and damage to those sensors would inflict penalties. |
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On what basis do you assume that the head could not contain the necessary visual sensors needed to fulfill the task of relaying enough informational to provide adequate situational awareness?
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| The system would have some protection granted, but I think increased sensor vulnerability would be inevitable if you took away the pilot's Mark I eyeballs. |
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I disagree. IN real life cockpits are always constained in what they allow the pilot to view with their own eyes, and there's no reason to think mechs are different. Replacing the viewports with a few additional sensors is not much of a change.
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| Sealing the pilot deep inside of the 'mech would also remove his sense of hearing, requiring microphones attached to the exterior of the 'mech. |
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And what makes you think that wasn't already the case. They are combat machines, not convertables. Its reasonable to assume sound reduction was already a major part of cockpit construction.
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 21:53 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I actually submitted it to FASA, but they declined to add it to level 2. I think I'm gonna re-submit it to CBT now. It might get published, after all look at all the other new equipment since they took over.
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I believe FASA had a policy of never accepting home brew equipment into official Btech material.
With CBT I am not sure what the deal is, but you might have better luck chuming up to a few of the insiders who post on the CBT boards.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
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Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2004 23:02 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I was working with the concept that a bigger mech would have the ability to have better reinforcement on the head than a light, which has a limit of 3X period. Extra measures on a larger mech would give a point or 2
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 21-Feb-2004 02:46 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Why is it that being a battletech "insider" somehow completely fails to impress me in any way 
mud, preachin' power to the people!
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
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| Posted: 21-Feb-2004 02:53 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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On 2004-02-20 21:49, Gangrene wrote:
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On 2004-02-20 19:30, -Mud wrote:
I was trying to differentiate between the sensors mounted in the head (or torso with a torso mounted cockpit) and the sensors (cameras, IR scanners and such) mounted on the 'mech's exterior. I think with torso mounted cockpits there would have to be a sensor critical in each body part, and damage to those sensors would inflict penalties. |
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On what basis do you assume that the head could not contain the necessary visual sensors needed to fulfill the task of relaying enough informational to provide adequate situational awareness?
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| The system would have some protection granted, but I think increased sensor vulnerability would be inevitable if you took away the pilot's Mark I eyeballs. |
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I disagree. IN real life cockpits are always constained in what they allow the pilot to view with their own eyes, and there's no reason to think mechs are different. Replacing the viewports with a few additional sensors is not much of a change.
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Not really true; think of aircraft cockpit design. Your statement may be true for passenger planes and for bombers, but fighters are always constructed with dome canopies specificially in order to increase the pilot's field of view. Additionally, limited cockpit visability is still a huge advantage over a couple of TV screens. The pilot couldn't be very accurate maneuvering this way.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
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Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Feb-2004 11:03 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Not really true; think of aircraft cockpit design. Your statement may be true for passenger planes and for bombers, but fighters are always constructed with dome canopies specificially in order to increase the pilot's field of view. Additionally, limited cockpit visability is still a huge advantage over a couple of TV screens. The pilot couldn't be very accurate maneuvering this way.
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I am thinking of fighter design. The canopy design may allow for a large field of view, but it does not cover all areas. There are gigantic blindspots in the space around a fighter; they cannot see below them or behind them, thats why they rely just as much on a sensor called radar to track their enemies movement.
Just because a visual sensor like a camera is used I do not see why that must limit the field of vision for a remotely located pilot. The camera does not need to have a fixed position, and it has advantages of having variable fields of view and the option of being coupled with other sensors.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Feb-2004 11:07 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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LOL . . . okay.
I hope you did not take my comment to mean that I was an insider! With respect to who's in and who's out in the Battletech popularity circle I am about as in the periphery as you can get (pun intended).
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Feb-2004 12:15 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Agreed.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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