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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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 Posted: 05-Aug-2010 00:16 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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And yet the fluff is full of blather how hard the components are to come by. I find it rather strange, that the clans lack the capacities to produce new omnis because of the sheer complexity, but they can chrun out 'Mechs with endo steel skeletons, ferro-fibrous armour and XL engines. If I'd expect something, than it would be the emergence of machines like the Crossbow or Kingfisher, for they use simpler technologies and if there is a thing that could have various parts made on different spaces and then assembled in almost field conditions, then it's an omnimech. The same goes for vehicles. If my economy is starved an I need to rebuild, my neigbours and trading partners are in the same condition or downright annihilated and my main factories are lying in ruin? What about to start building F-22s en-masse from charity money to jump-start the economy?
Seriously. So far the best entry to this TRO is the Tonbo, which is both useful and innovative.
At least they mostly avoided using ES skeleton to save weight and compact gyro to free space, which should tip a normal person off that he's doing something wrong 
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Aug-2010 09:43 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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I noticed that too, all of a sudden the Clans seem to have forgotten how to make Omni mechs and seem to have forgotten how to build factories to make the stuff needed to make Omnis.
Yet, as you said, they can pump out XL engines, ferro and endo steel, DHS etc...and some of you wonder why I question the logic things like the Jihad etc...mainly because of stuff like this. Oh well they can't do it because well they forgot how.
And I love the "suddenly the Clans in the OZ find themselves cut off from their home worlds"...what did their jump ships stop working? Did a giant void in space appear and prevent ships from moving through it? Did a rift swallow it up? The whole TRO had way to many moments of the fluff contradicting other parts of the book as well as other know facts, AS PRESENTED TO US, from other sourcebooks.
Also the lack of a page or something breaking the vehicles and mechs and aerospace units up from each other would have been nice as well.
And the new Goshawk...are they trying to get sued by Palladium Games? Damn thing looks very similar to some of the mecha found in that game.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Aug-2010 16:29 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Ouch, $25.00 is a bit steep for a digital download. Is it possible to get it in book form still? if I am paying that much I want to be able to hold it. Its been a while since I have looked and was wondering if they are getting away from actual books. It seems to be an alarming trend, which saves them a ton of money in production fees.
Now I guess for the big question. Is it worth the price?
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If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Aug-2010 17:10 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Book price is similar to the PDF, the combo ran me $59. It is worth getting if you want the canon mechs and all that go with them. If you are too worried about canon or don't want to spend the money then no it's not worth getting.
Overall it is a decent book. I don't think it is but together format wise as well as the original TROs, or even the some of the more recent ones. They crammed a lot in to it and seem to have cut a lot out of it, some of which have ended up as $5 PDF downloads from CGL.
They tired to re-set the game again, this time as the current blog claims a return to the 3025 feel of a level playing field where everyone has everything again. Well that is great and wonderful, but again it depends on what you are looking for out of the game. The TRO is suppose to give you the toys to play the game, this book does that. But at the same time it's suppose to be simple and easy to use, this one falls short in that area.
$25 is cheaper then what they have been asking for sourcebooks, online or in DTF (Dead Tree Format) aka paper back books. So what I am trying to say is if you want it then you will get it, if you don't or can't find a reason then you won't.
You have a choice, if you like PDFs, then go that route, if you like DTF, I like that format, then go that route or get them both. I am sure the "true die hards" will tell you to buy it cause if you don't then you are not supporting the game etc...yawn...I say it is up to you.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 05-Aug-2010 17:33 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Yes and no. It contains quite a few units hich I'd rather see in XTROs. Some good 'Mechs and some downright botches. Most of the stuff belongs to what people used to 3025-3055 eras, where high tech was reserved for the elites, would expect to see with the Sword of Light, or Knights of the Inner Sphere units and yet they are mostly fluffed like they were fed to regulars and even militias occasionally. Trying to hide behind necessity of speed upgrades XL engines are cramped to everything, even the Atlas is 400 XL for crying out loud (and then we get a 3/5/0 battlemaster with compact engine and old weaponry - 6 ML and PPC upgraded to ER). If you have the time to tinker with existing designs or to make your own with the new rules, then I think the TROs after 3075 (which at least had blakist omnis and most importantly the extensive BA section) are less and less worth the effort overall, but there are interesting thingies here and there. Unfortunately the worst examples of design are among 'Mechs and vees, Which happen to be the main content. Secondary content seems okay for now (it's harder to judge ships and fighters by just a glance).
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2010 13:37 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Funny, coming back into my old haunt, I feel more like enemy than prodigal son.
In ways, I agree with some of what you guys said above. But it sounds rather negative. As an old Jade Falcon, I enjoyed the fact that the Clan section was somewhat more balanced and elaborate than the one in 3075.
I enjoyed the spread of non-'Mech units in the whole book. The vees are munched out, sure, but this is the first-ever TRO that actually features a whole series of reasonable (in terms of game performance) MBTs; and some interesting units that do stuff that hasn't been done before. The "Pocket WarShip" concept seems to finally have grown up. And, as a fan, I have to say that there are only 3 Battle Armor in the book, but boy, do they do lots of stuff right.
Revisiting the Clan section, I also quite liked that this TRO contains what is arguably the worst Clan 'Mech ever, and also the best one.
You have cited a lack of direction, and in ways that is true. But the flip-side of it is that this TRO has a very, very broad spectrum that is hugely diverse, but also covers all shades of grey, so to speak. There are absolutely great units there and absolute clunkers and everything in between. I like that.
So, to get more shades of grey going: were there things you liked in particular?
Karagin: I loved your estimation of Plog's work. Couldn't agree more 
Sleeping Dragon: Tonbo!
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2010 16:01 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Best clan 'Mech? Where? 
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jymset
Scavenger
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2010 16:21 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Uhm, last one? Arguably 
The Karhu also puts the plethora of other 65-ton Omnis to shame; and call me crazy, but I also totally love the Tundra Wolf's newest incarnation.
On the other hand of the spectrum, we were "blessed" with the Arbalest and Dasher II...
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2010 17:11 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Hellstar? Another Gausszilla mutation? Oh, my...
Karhu... well, that chassis has an almost twin in Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) from TRO 3058, so why really bother?
And Tundra Wolf? Hmm a slowpoke for clan standards and with weapons I can roughly fit on a Timber Wolf... not bad, but I'm not that ecstatic either. They are right about the accuracy and armour though. All in all it looks like a poor man's Executioner. I can see it as a short-erm replacement for that omni, but we all know that the Executioner should be brought back ASAP.
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jymset
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2010 20:42 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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I'm not going to argue against you using one of my all-time favourites as an example! 
The Hellstar? Yes, it carries the game's best weapon x4, but I'm kinda really digging the max armour coupled with the 4/6 speed 
The Karhu chassis does mount more armour than the Ebon Jaguar; but it also has some really, really interesting configurations and at least one, but really two to three really powerful ones. As in make-the-Ebon-Jaguar-weep-very-much powerful ones.
But if the TRO was about the powerful units, it'd be... guh... It's about the spectrum!
So... what about the Battle Armor?
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2010 03:02 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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The point I was trying to make was that it's no use to re-discover the America. Why to build an almost perfect clone of one 'Mech, when you can just post variants. They keep using Phoenix designs left and right, so where is the problem? If you say that the Ebon Jaguar needs better configurations, then they should be made. That's why it's an OMNIMECH after all! 
Toward BAs...
Angerona doesn't get me that excited, Kopis is an interesting if somewhat static defense.
Ironhold is certainly a powerful design. Too bad that the fire variant isn't a bit faster, but just like Kopis it's immovable defender. Against lighter machines a point fo these bastards can become a road block with ease.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2010 06:29 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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One thing that has me going "Uhmm Why?" is the is push to use XL engines on almost everything and yet NOT use CASE for the IS? I know the TRO mechs are suppose to the average mechs that a military would most likely use, but some of these I won't wish on the enemy. Several mechs have less head armor then some 3025 tech mechs, and these are called improvements?
Three bigs weapons and then an ER Medium added in as a second thought, this would be the Shadow Cat II. To me that is not an improvement. Then whole idea or concept that the Clans who are in the OZ can't build Omnis doesn't makes sense, guess it's part of the new storyline. I would expect the Clans to have more Omnis. OR at the very least more configs coming out for their existing Omni mechs. Instead we see they are building one shot mechs ala the Inner Sphere, and we see that their merchants are worried about profit. So really the OZ Clans have become nothing more then 7 new IS nations.
Vehicles, while munchy can be looked at in the same manner as mechs. Too much being crammed into them. As for the BA, I like being able to make my own takes on that idea, but some of them are hard to follow in their intent given their weapons load out. Same with the Protomechs.
The Ships and fighters are there, nothing about any of those found in this TRO jump out and say "hey I am here use me".
I think some of us are having a few problems following some of the logic behind the designs and why this mech or that mech is actually being used when there are better mechs preceding it. I know a lot of these mechs are Dark Age hand me downs to the game and TPTB want to include them, but even still they could be done better or at least less odd. None of these mechs have character. Munchy some are and others fall on the other end of the scale with lack of need to be used.
Also given that just about all of these mechs have seen combat would it not have been better to include a Battle History of the mechs for each of the entry? That for me was an excellent selling point to want to use a mech ala TRO3025. I could then see if the report was close or not and then I had another battle to add to the mechs' history etc...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2010 08:27 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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I think we'll agree upon the fact that for some reason the designers never look back and just smash in more equipment. I'm always trying to keep an eye on how practical the design can be and if it can be mass-produced and easily repaired. New trends dictate that if the 'Mechs are shot to pieces, new ones are readily available, but that completely doesn't take into account that most skirmishes take place on planets that have rarely seen more than 60 'Mechs at once walking their surface before and that DropShip space is usually severely limited. That probably means that the advanced technology production capacities for highly advanced technologies have greatly increased (speaking about multiple thousands of percent) despite of all the Jihad humbug. House militaries must be now willing to spend billions on improvement of performance of their fusion engine powered forces by what? 10% on average? XL engines offer great opportunities for improvement, but they are easy to use wrong, quite unlike no-brainers like the ES structure and DHSs. The same goes for improved JJs and advanced gyros IMHO, which are partly the reason why the last two TROs managed to get an above-average amount of botches.
I'm not saying that new tech is bad, but it's misused. It's like every infantryman (including home-guard) carried an assault rifle with laser sights, sniping optics and underslung grenade launcher, wore wore a full body kevlar suite under-laid with neoprene (pure thought construct preventing the soldier from getting too cold and offering ballistic protection while being undesirably expensive) and packed night visors and anti-tank missile in his back-pack. Sure that it can improve performance, but it's impractical outside strike team duty.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2010 09:00 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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Pretty much you have summed up how the thinking seems to have gone, to the whole hey it's cool and new and not been used yet so lets' use it...and we end up with some mechs that even a new player would be against using.
Sure the House Lords have not gotten the bill so to speak on how much their wonder weapons are truly going to cost them in the long run...larger logistical trains and more down time due to maintenance needs and services. Again another area that BT over looks or out right ignores. Yet the two are of the most vital areas to any army in history. They do a good job paying them lip service but that is about it.
I do see how a few of the "new" Clan Clones can be made into Omni mechs without to much trouble or straining the owning Clans ability to build things.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2010 09:33 Post subject: TRO3085 |
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I'd rather repod my Summoner
Perhaps I've grown way too old school for this game
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